The Ascension

Michael_Legna,

Thanks for your reply. I truly enjoy reading your posts.

That is why this is difficult to say . . . cause I don’t want to be at odds with you on any point of Faith or apologetics of the Faith . . . and this should not lead to that.

A thought about these discussions:

In bygone days, when the vast majority of Christians were Catholic, it may have been allowed to have seeming arguments over the finer points and meanings of Doctrine. It would not be so scandalous in a closed environment. However, arguing the Faith, rather than discussing with Charity the Faith, is at least in part what lead to the terrible problems of the Reformation. It was not proper then and it is not proper in this forum to do that. We Catholics who are doing our best to properly represent Church Teachings have the Catechism to fall back on much of the time, which is really really great . . . also the writings of the Doctors of the Faith and the examples and writings of the Saints and Mystics, etc . . . which have been approved in some degree by the official Hierarchy of the Church.

In the meantime, we Catholics with each other, should do as we would do with any other Christian with whom we ‘know’ we don’t agree . . . we should try to read the other’s posts with ‘good-will’ so that we look for the agreement rather than searching heartily for the disagreement with the other.

Although I may have worded something differently in yours and JRoberts' posts had I been the one who wrote them . . . if I read them with good-will . . . I will allow for the fact that you didn’t seem to say it exactly as I would have. I figure that you are trying your best, and JRoberts is trying his best, to say what the Church Teaches . . . because that is the bottom line of being Catholic . . . that we all Believe and express to the best of our ability what CHRIST and HIS Church really Teaches . . . and that the principle is that these Teachings do not contradict either Scripture or Dogma or Nature or Truth of any sort if it is really Truth. Truth is the same yesterday, today and forever. What can grow about Truth is the depth of meaning . . . not the meaning itself. And so it has for these 2000 + years.

***Now to our ongoing discussion ***

Michael said:

I don't think it is correct to say Jesus divine nature died on the cross. I am aware of no statement in the Church's doctrine that says this. I also don't believe the soul dies at the time of our mortal death either. We know only God can kill the soul (Matt 10:28) so using your analogy (as I understand it) just as Christ's divine nature survived the cross, so too our soul survives our bodies death. Otherwise how do you explain the Church Triumphant?

My reply:

I’m kind of surprised that you could get so wrong what I said. Although you sort of got the first sentence correct in your reply . . . the rest of it came from your imagination of what you think I said . . . which is simply not in the wording I used.

You are right that JESUS Divine Nature did not die on the Cross. I can see why you think I said that . . . as I did not go into detail as to the use of my words. Obviously, you don’t know of any way those words can mean anything other than the way you took them.

Try this . . .

JESUS’ Divine Nature did not necessarily die on the Cross in time and space . . . it being HIS Sacred Humanity which died for certain on the Cross at Calvary . . . however, in Eternity . . . the 2nd Divine Person of the BLESSED TRINITY WHO Scripture refers to as the LAMB slain before the foundation of the world . . . this Divine Person WHO is GOD . . . was Eternally slain as the LAMB of GOD . . . apparently before Creation was Created . . . whatever that may mean theologically. It seems from Scripture that the 2nd Divine Person of the BLESSED TRINITY must have ‘accepted’ HIS Future Death on the Cross and was actually slain in Eternity . . . before the foundation of the world was even lain.

Now whatever it means to be . . . Eternally slain, before the foundation of the world . . . it does most likely mean that HE was slain in Eternity before the foundation of the world . . . as before Creation was only Eternity. I could be wrong.

The last book of Scripture also refers to this 2nd Divine Person, CHRIST the LAMB, as standing on the Altar in Heaven . . . as if slain — we Catholics saying that CHRIST bears the marks of HIS Crucifixion . . . even now at this moment — just as HE showed to the Apostles. The 2nd Divine Person of the BLESSED TRINITY came from Eternity and Lived and Died on earth as JESUS the CHRIST and went back to Eternity as the Glorified JESUS CHRIST, still remaining the 2nd Divine Person of the BLESSED TRINITY. I Believe the Church is clear on this. Maybe the Church will narrow this all down for us one day . . . or . . . not . . . Dogmatically. Many of these things have been written of in the writings of the Doctors and Saints and Mystics but . . . you are correct . . . these may not be Dogma . . . yet . . . but I believe these writings do not contradict either Scripture or the Dogmas and Doctrines of the Church.

Don’t mis-read or mis-understand. I did not say the Soul dies? As a Catholic, I would never knowingly say such a thing. No.

All men are appointed to die the first death only . . . which clearly is the separation of our body and soul . . . for a time . . . until the final judgment. Scripture warns further . . . do not die the second death . . . which I may wrongly state to be the eternal ‘death’ of the soul . . . but only so to speak . . . which we also know the Soul cannot die in reality . . . as it is immortal . . . but which Soul will be in hell forever and ever with a corrupt body . . . the second death.

Our body and soul Unity is not the ‘Hypo-static Union’ which exists between CHRIST’s two Natures . . . but it is an image and likeness to that Unity . . . and thus the body and Soul should be considered as one thing at the point of being Created and at the point of our Judgment day reunion . . . in that respect . . . treating our bodies with the same respect that CHRIST treats HIS Sacred Human Nature . . . and only because of that image and likeness to JESUS.

I don’t mind your clarifications . . . as you are very good at stating the Teachings of the Church.

What I kind of mind . . . and think you would benefit if you would correct just a bit . . . is that you take people the wrong way and don’t leave them any room to agree with you . . . especially JRoberts on occasion . . . and you should not do that . . . especially in this ‘other than Catholic Christian’ forum. Look for the good . . . or at least reply with your ‘comment’ rather than your ‘accusation’ or ‘mis-understanding’ . . . and everything would go soooo much smoother and better for all of us and you too.

Michael, Please don’t be offended.

As I said, I Truly enjoy your posts.

GOD Bless you and us all in our endeavors to state HIS Truth for HIS Glory and the Good of all.