The Ascension
Submitted by jroberts on Mon, 2007-05-21 06:22.
Yesterday (or last Thursday), Liturgical Churches celebrated the Ascension; i.e., the point when 40 days after the Ressurection, Jesus ascended bodily into heaven. What do y'all think are the implications for that? Do you think of Jesus as still having His ressurected body? Do you think we'll have bodies in heaven?
No the issue is denial of bodily resurrection
jroberts said -
I think you hit on the meaning of cremation perfectly. Willingness to be cremated relies on a body-soul dualism, that's no where to be found in traditional Christianity.
Please provide a source for this claim. I know of no source for this denial of body soul dualism. In fact if it is true then the saints who are dead but have not been resurrected yet, cannot be with God in heaven. Paul too had to be wrong when he said -
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
jroberts said -
We're not just a soul, we're our bodies too. "Soul" and "Body" are, in traditional, Catholic, Orthodox Christianity, really just two ways of talking about the one thing, a person.
No, they are not the same thing. Please show me any traditional Catholic source such as the Catechism or maybe the Summa Theologica that expresses this idea.
jroberts said -
It's not, "I'm a soul and I have a body," which seems to be what's implicit in a willingness to be cremated or left in a bag at the curb. This is why Catholicism has always insisted on the importance of being consecrated earth,
No the Catechism says it is something else that is what we should be concerned over:
Para 2301 The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.
The body we have now is just a seed. It will be converted from a corrupt nature to incorruptibility
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Cor 15:36-53 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Now this does not mean that the resurrected body is strictly spiritual, at least not in the way we understand it currently because Jesus had a glorified body, and while He could walk through walls...
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
...but He also could be touched...
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
...and He could eat food as we see in John 21. So yes the resurrected body is still the same body, but it has been changed, made incorruptible and more spirit like, but it is still the same body, just as a plant is the same as the seed it grows from.
jroberts said -
why the incorruptibles and relics have been venerated
No the incorruptibles are venerated because they are blessed by God as a sign them being His Holy Ones as a follower/imitator of Christ.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The relics are venerated because they were used by God to work miracles through them much as Elijah's bones or the handkerchiefs or aprons of Paul.
jroberts said -
Cremation per se probably isn't that much of an issue, but it carries behind it the assumption that "It's just a body," to which anything can be done after "the soul is gone."
No the assumption that we are to be concerned with is not that it is just a body, but that we can somehow affect the chance of resurrection of the body by modifying its form. To people in the past (who did not know much about anatomy or burials) did not realize or understand that buried bodies decompose, nor did they think about the other logical issues of bodies being eaten by animals etc. But now when we think about these issues today we realize that if God can resurrect a decomposed body from a modern burial vault, or resurrect a body after it having been eaten and digested by a shark, then He is certainly capable of resurrecting a cremated body. It is this sophisticated thinking that the Church now recognizes and has thus lifted the ban on cremation from the Code of Canon Law (which by the way was always an issue of discipline, never an issue of doctrine).
jroberts said -
I have a vague sense from your previous posts that you're Catholic, maybe, or at least have Catholic leanings and sympathies.
Yes, I have been a Catholic all my life and have never heard the issues you raise as being taught as doctrine in the Church.
jroberts said -
Why do you think we do corporeal things like genuflect and make the cross? We're teaching ourselves to love God in our bodies.
No it is in obedience to scripture:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
The sign of the cross is a bringing to remembrance of our baptism, a blessing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Other physical mortifications of the flesh are to bring to remembrance the life in the Spirit over the pleasures of the flesh. If anything they point to the distinction between the two rather than the sameness.
jroberts said -
If I can say "it's just a body" about my eventual corpse, why can't I say it now?
Because now we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Do you contend the Holy Spirit remains with the body once we are dead?
jroberts said -
The whole history of traditional Christianity is one fight against dualism after another.
Each issue of dualism has to be considered on its own, just because most dualistic ideas are in error does not mean that dualism in and of itself is inherently wrong.