To what extent is Mary the mother of the Church, or the Church the mother of Christians ???
Here is the posting that provides the jumping off point to this as a new topic. I am adding dividing lines between points for the purpose of clarification. Aside from that nothing is changed.
Submitted by jwmcmac on Sat, 2010-01-23 13:49.
Dan quoting himself and me said:
JW: Mom is there for all to see . . . if they choose to allow themselves to see . . . Her.
DAN: Then let us see how well she is revealed in scripture
JW: The Virgin of Genesis . . . who will crush the Serpent's head with her heel
DAN: My Bible says HIS HEEL but you have gotten so used to replacing Christ with Mary you might not see the distinction. It is Christ that bruises the Serpent's head. Mary has no place in this passage which focuses on Christ. But you would rob Christ of His place in this passage to create your mother image."
The Douay says . . . this . . .
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
15 "She shall crush"... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.
"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation."
JW:the Woman of the Apocalypse . . . with Her other offspring against whom the serpent and his offspring will make war with Her and Her offspring . . .
DAN: O you mean Israel that in Rev 12 is mentioned as the woman that gave birth to the man child who will rule the nations. That is, unless Mary hid in the wilderness 1260 days or 3.5 years.
Well, the Apocalypse relates . . .
The Apocalypse Of Saint John
Chapter 12 -- The vision of the woman clothed with the sun and of the great dragon her persecutor.
1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.
3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
1 "A woman"... The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions."
Mary gave birth to JESUS and HE has been caught up to Heaven . . . so to speak . . .
The Church gives birth to us and we are Her Children, Children also of Mary in and with and through CHRIST, WHO is Mary's Son . . . and the devil is waging war against us and us against him . . . even now.
JW; Mary meditating upon these things in Her Heart . . . more than once Mary's Heart is spoken of in this manner . . .
. . . I'm pretty sure . . . that Mary was meditating in Her Heart in Prayer as to the Word of GOD when the Angel appeared to Her . . . but no . . . not good for you . . . just ignore this one . . . but not the next two . . .
Mary's Heart is mentioned again . . .
. . . when they offered HIM to the Father at the Temple Ceremony in HIS Infancy and Simeon prophesied about Her Heart being pierced so that the thoughts of many might be revealed . . .
. . . when they found JESUS in the Temple . . . answering the questions of the elders, astounding them with HIS Wisdom and Learning . . . and HE going home and being obedient unto HIS Earthly Parents . . . She meditating on these things in Her Heart . . .
. . . it being clear that Mary's Heart is a place of Mystery and Holiness . . . but you cannot enjoy to accept this . . . so be it . . .
DAN: yes, she did and that does not go to your point at all of Mary being our mother...And Jesus taught us to pray our Father not our mother. So again scripture gives Jesus the place you give to Mary.
If Mary is JESUS's Mother and we are HIS Mystical Body and we are part of HIM United in HIM . . . then We are Mystically Her Children and She is Mystically, by Grace, our Mother.
If you cannot entertain this . . . then you should also not entertain the idea or fact that you are an adopted Son of GOD by Grace in and through CHRIST . . . because it is the same . . . even if you don't accept or see it.
And when we pray the Our Father, we imitate JESUS in Praying to the FATHER for all the things a FATHER provides.
When we pray the Hail Mary . . . we are merely repeating the Scripture and with some Facts about Mary as our Mother thrown in by the Church.
Oh yeah . . . I forgot . . . you don't accept anything from the Church and you interpret the Scripture the way you personally want to.
JW: Her requesting HIS First public Miracle . . . at Cana . . . the LORD very well knowing what this was between Her and HE.
DAN: And Jesus pretty much told Mary it wasnt her place to say when He would start His ministry. Read jn 2. Again, this does nothing to support Mary as our mom.
I believe that you know not of what you speak . . . but you pursue this 'negative' opinion at your peril . . .
You think that 'know' that JESUS was putting HIS Mother in HER place . . .
. . . we Catholics Believe rather that HE was lifting Her to a bit of a Higher Place . . . lifting Her from the truth of our temporal scale (Blessed Womb and Breasts) to that Truth which Spiritually makes Her even greater . . . JESUS doing this rather modestly and subtly . . . due to Her humility and Obedience.
John Chapter 2:
4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
4 "What is that to me"... These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shews that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shewn at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another."
'Woman' is a Biblical Title of Honor in both Genesis and Apocalypse . . .
. . . Take it any way you want . . . but I think you are on the wrong side of this one.
And for what good reason would you desire to lower Mary or even to compare yourself to Her? There is no 'good' reason to do this.
JW: She being rather the one Who Hears the Word of GOD and 'does' It . . .
DAN: So what. With respect to you and Mary, all real Christians hear and obey
So What ? !!! you say.
We have already seen that you 'obey' . . . whatever you decide to obey according to 'how' you personally interpret Scripture. You obey you.
Mary obeyed GOD . . . at the word of an Angel . . . after putting the Angel's Word to the Test of Her Jewish Faith.
She saw in the Angel's Word . . . the description of the Shekinah Glory overshadowing the Ark of the Covenant.
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, in Whom rests GOD in Her Womb.
"And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
jw: She Standing at the foot of the Cross, with John the Priest, in offering this Sacrifice, together with CHRIST, the High Priest, to the Father . . .
DAN; This just shows Mary suffered as Christ's mother, not mother of the Church in any sense of the word. Mary didnt have any choice or part in Jesus sacrifice on the Cross except as His beloved mother AND a sinner in need of a Savior.
Why you would pursue your line of thought on these topics is beyond anyone's imagining, if they are thinking clearly, in my opinion.
Yes! Mary Suffered with HER Son.
Yes! She did have a choice . . . and Her Choice was to Stand at the Foot of the Cross for GOD and For us.
Yes! Mary saw Herself as a sinner in need of a Saviour . . . though She never having committed a single personal sin . . . She still requiring to be saved from Adam's Original Sin, just like the rest of us.
You think nothing of the fact that JESUS used almost HIS last breath on Earth to give HIS Mother to John and John to HIS Mother . . . you thinking this 'idle' conversation on their part?
Are you so blind? Are you so deaf? Are you so hard hearted? . . . as to not notice in this any 'other' significance . . .
JW: Mary being overshadowed and made Pregnant with the SON of GOD by the Power from on High . . . Her Divine Spouse, the HOLY SPIRIT . . .
DAN: Yes the Spirit overshadowed Mary. Divine spouse: just more RCC teaching not in scripture at all and doing nothing to prove Mary as the mother of the Church.
<<< Removed closure line of my original letter >>>
So, you think the HOLY SPIRIT would just do whatever HE wants, without asking . . . and without any formalities . . . ?
Even though all of this is done 'Virginally' . . . both corporally and Spiritually . . . do you really believe that there are no formalities involved in this Divine/Historical Moment when CHRIST is Conceived?
Oh yeah . . . the Bible did not give to you every detail . . . so you automatically assume the worst? Does that seem a 'good' thing for you to do in such a HOLY Moment?
Which sounds more better to you . . . ? . . . Divine Spouse . . . or . . . or . . . or . . . what?
What are you going to come up with here?
Of course it can't possibly be anything that the Church would Teach . . . cause you reject the Church . . . at least the only one that Teaches that Mary is the Spouse of the HOLY SPIRIT . . . ? . . . and that we must all be like Her in this By Grace and Faith.
But, in Her Motherhood of CHRIST, She is by Nature what we can only be by Grace.
And Her Divine Espousal is a Mystery that you will never understand . . . especially since you refuse to accept any such thing.
The Church's positions on these things . . . are supportable with Scripture.
But you don't accept the Church and you don't accept the Scripture . . . except as you 'see' it.
I'm sorry to be so hard on you, Dan.
I know you are doing the best you can with what you Believe . . . but I Believe that you are wrong.
GOD Bless you and us all.