Christ removes all barriers to catholicity of His church through faith

JeffLogan's picture

Thinking about Christ and how He breaks down all barriers and spoils all principalities and powers which prevent true universality, true catholicity, of His body, the church...

Has anyone ever considered that a living faith is not achieved by adding our works to our faith but rather, that faith is a gift from God which being quickened by the Holy Spirit produces obedience (good works)? (The keyword here is "quickened". It would serve you well to consult your Strong's Concordance.)

Think about this verse and tell me what it means:

    And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32 (KJV)

But first, before you answer, tell me what this means to demonstrate your wisdom:

    "Love means never having to say you're sorry." (Love Story, The movie.)

Does it mean...

    1) Love does nothing to warrant an apology

    2) Love takes no account of injury

    3) Other (explain)

Now answer the verse in question:

    And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32 (KJV)

Does it mean...

    1) God only gives His Holy Spirit to those who obey Him

    2) God gives His Holy Spirit to men so they might obey Him

    3) Other (explain)

This is a discovery exercise and not a theological debate. Opinions are welcomed but scriptural support would be even better. Be sure to interpret your scriptures so we can understand how you are using them. Commentaries may be insightful but a paraphrase in your own words would be appreciated and would demonstrate you understand your subject matter.

jwmcmac's picture

jwmcmac Comments: Okay.

jwmcmac Comments:

Okay. I'll try . . . and . . . good thing I shortened this.

In reference to Jq's . . .

"Show me where... jwmcmac
Submitted by jqlogan on Thu, 2009-11-26 14:52.
Show me where..."

jwmcmac comments:

In all of these comments of yours below . . . I leaving out the Scriptures you quoted . . . for the purpose of getting to your words . . . and the clarity of what you were saying . . .

. . . In all of these words which you said to De Maria . . . referring to the Old Law . . . you were also striking at the Catholic Church . . . at least as you see and mis-understand Her . . . and especially you striking at Her in this last statement of yours . . . being in reference to 'another topic' . . . ummmhuhhhh . . . the 'unspoken other topic' of your words.

Perhaps you genuinely do not see that you have applied this in your own mind to the Church . . . but as you do this all the time and have done this very much in the past . . . being clever about it does not hide the fact . . . as I see it.

At least you were nice about it . . . and indirect . . . though directly attacking what you believe to be the manner of operation of the Church . . . but . . .

. . . you are very often in error as to Her manner of operation . . . as you do not understand Her Sacramental Nature and do not therefore have any appreciation for what She does . . . in SPIRIT and Truth . . . similar to what the JEWS only did by Practice, for the most part.

You are correct that the Church can fall into a purely 'outward practice' and 'outward show' of Faith . . . as even you and I can do this even now . . . but your problem is that the 'outward' is all that you see of Her and Her practices and of Her Faith.

You fail to see the SPIRIT at work in Her Sacramental Structure and in Her Life and in Her Practices . . . which 'outwardly manifest' and give 'form' to and emphasize the 'Spiritual part of the Truth of Her Faith and Practice'.

In other words . . . you fail to 'see' CHRIST in Her . . . seeing only the 'human' and not the 'Divine' aspects of Her Life and Practice . . . failing to see the 'Incarnate' Image of CHRIST, the Whole CHRIST, in HIS Mystical Body on earth, the Church.

It is true that CHRIST's Mystical Body suffers from abuse and in appearance appears to be 'no man' at time in our history, suffering from the scourging of Her flesh by the sins of Her Members . . . but none-the-less . . . She is HIM, HIS Bride in the Flesh.

Jq said:

"I can see from the text you cited that you are searching down the wrong path. One passage you could have cited is Ephesians 2:11-20 which describes how Jesus' death on the cross ended the earthly sacrificial system which excluded the Gentiles.

He did so by providing Himself as the Lamb slain for the whole world. Now everyone, everywhere can come to Him as their Mediator of the better covenant. It has been taken out of the hands of men entirely."

jwmcmac comments:

You are right and wrong. CHRIST, the Lamb Slain before the foundation of the World . . . and at Calvary . . . these being one Eternal/Natural event . . . CHRIST has made it possible for man to be Victors with HIM and in HIM and through HIM.

No! It has 'not' been taken out of the hands of men . . . but has been put back into the hands of men so that the Woman and Her offspring can defeat the devil by the Power given to them by their Saviour JESUS Christ . . . also born of the Woman.

Jq said:

"This required that the laws concerning the earthly sanctuary be changed. The shadow system was replaced by the true."

jwmcmac comments:

Yes! The old covenant was a forshadowing of the New Covenant where we do not have the Ark of the Old Covenant in which resides the manna, the rod of Aaron, the ten commandments written on stone . . .

. . . but instead . . .

. . . we have the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, our Mother the Church . . . and we have the actual Bread of Heaven in the Holy Eucharist residing on our Altars, we have the actual Priest (and the new Priesthood according to the order of Melchisidek, who offered bread and wine as Sacrifice), and we have the actual WORD of GOD Made Flesh and dwelt amongst us.

No longer do we offer a bloody Sacrifice of animals that cannot please GOD . . .

but we offer the 'unbloody' Sacrifice which is a memorial and a Real and Substantial 'making present' of the One only Eternal Bloody Sacrifice of CHRIST at Calvary and as the Lamb WHO was Slain before the foundation of the World.

Jq said:

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

jwmcmac comments:

And so it is. The law is now a Sacramental system in the SPIRIT of GOD by Grace . . . and in Truth of our Nature as men . . . in other words . . . Truth is Incarnate by Grace . . . Sacramental in regards to us in CHRIST and CHRIST in us.

jq said:

"This change occurred on the cross where these laws were annulled at Christ's death. That which waxeth old was ready to vanish away. And the blood of Jesus ratified the new covenant."

jwmcmac comments:

Amen, brother! Amen! And so be it! Glory be to GOD!

Jq said:

See, we are not to allow any one to judge us even respecting an holyday. No more holy day of obligation! Nor in meat or drink. No fasting days of obligation! None of those rudimentary things. Just Christ!

jwmcmac comments:

According to you . . . this would seem to be meant to apply to the Church . . . but that is not the case.

What changed as to Holy days and their observance . . . was the purpose and the SPIRIT with which these are observed.

You may not agree . . . having known none of it yourself . . . but . . .

From the earliest days, the Church has celebrated Holy Days and such . . . especially celebrating the 'Day of the LORD in the Breaking of the Bread'.

jq said:

"And, there is nothing meritorious about observing special occurrences during the years. This is not a works gospel."

jwmcmac comments:

You are correct! These are Faith and Practice of the Faith . . . not 'works'. These are 'Obedience' and 'humility' and 'Spiritual Life'.

You are also correct that if all these are to those who practice them are 'worldly exercises' and are not 'enlivened by Faith and the SPIRIT' then they are useless.

If we do not 'discern the Body of the LORD' . . . 'in Faith' . . . then we eat and drink our own condemnation in the casual and errant 'receiving' there-of.

Jq said:

"These are just some of the barriers that Christ removed. Now the path has been cleared of all debris so that the sinner can flee to Christ without any barriers, hurdles, or restrictions. You don't even have to wait to go to church. You can get on your knees and ask forgiveness of your sins and know that Jesus will forgive you. No need to wash before you come! Come as you are!'

jwmcmac comments:

In general, I would agree with you . . . much of what you say can be done at any moment . . . and at every moment we should do as you have said . . .

. . . but you go to far . . . Scripture saying to 'search yourself' . . . and CHRIST saying to allow HIM to wash our feet . . . these . . . before we receive HIM . . . or else we will have no part in HIM . . . we do have to wash . . . at least Spiritually . . . and a little observance . . . of a human nature . . . and for spiritual purpose and for practical purpose . . . is not burdensome . . . but is good for you.

Being that we are human . . . we will always have some difficulty with the human side of things of the Faith . . . but these are a necessary part none-the-less.

The few restrictions of the Church are for Spiritual purposes . . . not as the Jews practiced . . . and Scripture relates that these purposes are True and of importance in our Practice of the Faith.

(jwmcmac says: this next is out of context . . . but I think Jq understands)
Jq said:

"Yes, but does God give it to them (1) because they obey or (2) so that they might obey? It sounds like you favor #2. It's just that not all wish to obey so they ignore the gift as though they did not receive it."

jwmcmac comments:

We always favor the both of these . . . because it is both.

Jq said:

"There is a power mentioned in Daniel 8 which it is prophesied will try to cast the heavenly Priesthood and the place of God's tabernacle to the ground. That is, after Jesus arose and went to heaven to sit on the right hand of the Father and to be crowned our High Priest officiating in the heavenly temple this power would think to bring all those functions back to earth. "Cast [them] down" to earth. Oddly enough it says this power practiced and prospered. But in verse 14 we learn that the truth will come out and God's heavenly temple will be restored (cleansed; be made right) to its rightly place in the minds of His people. But that is another topic."

jwmcmac comments:

Be careful here . . . you may be calling the Church this power to which you refer . . . and you would be wrong in this.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention in this . . . I Hope so . . . and if so . . . I apologize.

GOD Bless you and us all.




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