Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

duu1der's picture

duu1der said - Yes, the

duu1der said -
Yes, the Catholic church welcomes open dialogue, as long as you say what the "Church" approves of. That is exactly the same situation that existed during the Great Councils, and was so much more intensely used during the Great Inguistion" when the "Church" abused its authority to such a wide decree.

ML said: "Kung was allowed a long period in which he taught and was highly regarded in the Church until he began to express idea contrary to established dogmas of the Church - so yes then he was ex communicated by the Church just as he would have been from any other Church if he had taught contrary to their doctrines."

"Luther did, in the beginning, only rebel against abuses, but once the political forces of the day got their hooks into him and offered him a way to avoid defending his doctrines before a tribunal (just so they could break free of the Church's control over their intended abuse of their subjects) then Luther went on to express more doctrinal concerns and beliefs. That is why Luther was ex communicated."

Interesting how your response confirms my statement. When anyone questioned the "dogma's" or "doctrines" of the "RCC" they faced the threat of excommunication.

Now...since you hold your "list of proofs" in such high value, I will answer some of them. I will not attempt to do an exegesis on ALL of your supposed "proof" but, as you said, if one side is proven wrong, then the whole falls apart. So I will look at a few of your "conclusions" in regards to Jesus.

Who Will Raise the True Believer from the Dead?
God the Father—1 Cor. 6:14
Jesus Christ—John 5:25-29, 6:40, 44, Phil. 3:20-21
The Holy Spirit—Rom. 8:11

John 5:25-29 - Notice v:26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted [empowered] the Son to have life in Himself".
v:27 "And has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man"

Yep, you are right. God EMPOWERED Jesus and GAVE HIM authority to do all things, even execute judgment just as is stated in Phil 2:9-11, as I've said all along.

But, does not equate Jesus to God; quite the contrary. It proves my point more than yours.

Phil 3:20-21 -- you have taken out of context.
See v:7-11, esp 9-11 - "And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness which is FROM GOD BY FAITH: that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection,adn the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death. If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
In v:20-21 Paul is referring to the second coming when we will be transformed. However, as he stated earlier, that ability came because "God has highly exalted Him" (Phil 2: 9-11)because of His sacrificial life.

Again, not because Jesus is God, but, because He was EMPOWERED by God and GIVEN AUTHORITY by God. Once again you do a good job of proving MY point, not yours.

John 6:40, 44 -- Again, taken out of context.
see :37, 39 -- "All that the Father GIVES me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
Again, God has GIVEN to Jesus the power to raise up at the last day, because, Jesus was MADE TO BE the head of the church. God prophesized this through Isaiah 53:10-12 -
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When you make His soul an offering for sin, He [God] shall see His seed [Jesus],He [God] shall prolong His [Jesus] days, and the please of the LORD shall prosper in His [Jesus] hand. He [God] shall see the labor of His [Jesus] soul and be satisfied, by His [Jesus] knowledge My [God] righteous Servant [Jesus] shall justify many, for He [Jesus] shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I [God] will divide Him [Jesus] a portion with the great, and He [Jesus] shall divide the spoil with the strong, becasue He [Jesus] poured out His [Jesus] soul unto death, and He [jesus]was numbered with the transgressors, and He [Jesus] bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors"
God foretold that He was going to elevate Jesus to a position of authority based on the work He did. Not that Jesus was born with that authority, but that He earned it by sacrificing His life -- just as Paul described in Philipians.

Once again, scripture proves out my point, not yours.

I have to get back to work now... and I will show you more later. My point is, as I stated before, you have taken things out of context and misapplied them. You have altered the meaning of scripture to fit your needs without allowing the scripture to speak on its full authority.

As I have proven, the verses you taut as "proof" only proves that I am more accurate in my belief than the Trinity holds.
You said I claimed that Jesus was elevated to God, which I did not. What I said was that Jesus was elevated to a position of the most honored Servant (which God refers to Him as)and because God EMPOWERED Jesus with the authority to act on God's behalf because He earned it by His sacrificial life. Because Jesus shed His blood for many, God placed Him in charge of the church.