Put your thoughts, memories and stories of Passover here. For the secular/pagan discussion of Easter please use the Easter Bunny thread.
. . . let me apologize in advance to Loutz . . . and the Blessed Mother . . . you deserve better from us.
You will not understand this . . . but I'll try to be clear.
You say so many almost Catholic things . . . twisting them just enough to take them as your own and taking them away from the Church . . .
But you are wrong in doing this . . . and I Hope you can get over it one day . . . or at least see it one day.
Your arguments against the Authority of the Church do not even make any sense to the likes as me.
If you placed your self-interpretations of Scripture in the exact same position which you place the Church . . . as to Authority . . . you would see how wrong you are.
You cannot interpret Scripture as you do without placing your self-interpretation over and above the very Scripture which you claim has authority over you.
Here it is . . . You, an individual man, can interpret Sacred Scripture correctly . . . but the Church which wrote the New Testament 'Cannot interpret Sacred Scripture correctly' . . . because it is men who are doing this . . . and by gosh awful thing . . . these men even claim to have the authority to interpret this authority-unto-itself Scripture . . . that only men who interpret this Scripture privately can interpret? Oh yeah. That's what you are saying . . . in all actuality.
You say Scripture comes before man.
But . . . Not in your one case.
Your interpretation of Scripture comes before Scripture 'alone' . . . or is it 'after' or 'along with' . . . ? . . . while claiming the Church cannot do this.
You are so dead-set against the Church that you can't see straight . . . in my opinion . . . though not your opinion.
I don't see how it is that you can think that the Church founded by CHRIST on men is oh so wrong . . . when you . . . an individual man . . . are oh so right . . . and . . . please don't even try to explain that one . . . cause it just won't come out right in any way . . . especially since so many things you come up with were come up with by the Church long long long long long long long before you ever came up with it . . . and even to this day.
And the Church came up with Her interpretations from the beginning and you . . . when did you arrive at your interpretations? . . . are they still evolving? . . . over 30,000 different interpretations and counting . . . and that is without breaking it down individually, I mean privately.
The Church has One Voice of interpretation . . . and never changes Her interpretation . . . not even a Pope can do this.
But everyone who interprets 'privately' can do this.
That is awesome.
I'm sorry, but if you can get it right . . . as you claim you do . . . then the Church can also get it right . . . and yet you disallow this . . . getting it right . . . to the Church on the basis that the Church has men of Authority . . . over and above or even alongside Sacred Scripture . . . whichever way you prefer to 'hear' or 'not hear' it . . . you disallowing the Church's interpretation of Scripture . . . on the basis that men who interpret Scripture different from you just cannot get it right, unless they agree with your interpretation of Sacred Scripture . . .
Very sensible. Very plausible. Very Unifying.
. . . and in this scenario of . . . private interpretation verses the Church's interpretation of Sacred Scripture . . . applying this scenario even the church offices, the Pope specifically . . .
. . . then I would rather Believe that the only person who was ever prayed for by CHRIST 'that his Faith not fail' is in better position than are you or I to 'get it right' . . . and that the Church he started and which still is here today . . . with his office intact . . . She has got it right . . . over and above you or me . . . over an above a private man interpreting as he himself desires . . .
. . . and to me . . . a man making it up as he goes along . . . and as he sees fit . . . and though perhaps he being willing to allow this same ability to others with whom he may disagree on some point or another . . . but denying this same ability to the Church JESUS founded upon men whom HE HIMSELF sent into the world . . . saying the gates of hell would never prevail against Her . . . well one of those does not make any sense . . .
. . . but you thinking the Church JESUS sent, the men HE founded HIS Church upon . . . all changed . . . When? . . . say around 1500 or even much earlier . . . when did hell prevail against this Church of men? . . . it giving way to private men who would carry on interpreting the Book the Church wrote? Yeah! That's it.
After all, you are right and She is wrong. Right? . . . now . . . the Church is no longer a visible entity . . . hell already prevailed against that aspect of Her . . . so that now only private men self-interpreting the authority of the Bible are the Church?
. . . even from Scripture . . . this makes no sense
. . . so I can only believe that you are making it up as you go along . . . to suit your own understanding . . .
. . . Scripture saying not to look to your own understanding . . .
. . . but you doing this very much so anyway . . .
. . . with I Believing that you are mis-using the Scripture somewhat in the process of your 'getting it right' . . . since you leave out the most important player, after CHRIST . . . this being the Church . . . since the Church of men sent to Teach the Gospel . . . according to you . . . has no authority unless they interpret the Scripture they wrote in the way that you think they should from your personal reading of Sacred Scripture.
It does not matter to you that all of the Popes for the first 300 years died martyrs.
Superfluous, right? No such thing as a visible Church on earth or earthly Shepherds in a line from the apostles from the laying on of hands . . . oh yeah . . . now we do it by committee or by self-election . . . not by Bishops in a line from the first apostles.
Another thing that is puzzling is . . . that . . .
You don't even differ that much from the Church in many of your understandings . . . yet . . . you insist that the Church is wrong and you are right.
The Gospel was being Preached long before the New Testament was even penned or a legitimate Canon approved by the Church.
Gospel Preached by the Church . . . day one.
New Testament Written by the Church . . . years later.
Bible brought into a Canon . . . even more years later.
Jews change their canon of old testament and go back to the Aramaic instead of the Greek Septuagint used in CHRIST's day . . . about 130 AD.
Luther decided to change our understanding of Church to . . . the Bible made the Church . . . and in 1500 or so . . . Luther and reformers throw out 5 books from the Old Testament . . . and almost James too . . . deciding to go back to the Aramaic version of the Old Testament with the Jews, who did this because the Christians were using these books to explain CHRIST and the Church . . . and private interpretation came to be the new invisible Church . . . cause there certainly was no unity in the visible ones anymore . . . the Flesh being ripped from the Mystical Body of CHRIST.
I've been ranting some . . . but from my perspective . . . you deserve it.
Sorry . . . maybe I'm wrong as to that . . . that you deserve it . . . but you know what I mean . . . I Hope.
Hope you will forgive me too . . . but that depends on your interpretation of Scripture, I think.
Can you understand in the least Why I am having difficulty with your 'logic'?
If not . . . then don't think about it . . . and I'll forget about it too.
It is not good to argue religion.
I Believe as I do and so also do you.
We'll find out the Truth at the judgement.
I am doing my best and you certainly believe that you are too.
Here's one for you . . . Catholics Believing this refers to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass . . . from Sacred Scripture.
What think you?
Malachais Chapter I :
11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And you have profaned it in that you say: The table of the Lord is defiled: and that which is laid thereupon is contemptible with the fire that devoureth it.
13 And you have said: Behold of our labour, and you puffed it away, saith the Lord of hosts, and you brought in of rapine the lame, and the sick, and brought in an offering: shall I accept it at your hands, saith the Lord?
14 Cursed is the deceitful man that hath in his flock a male, and making a vow offereth in sacrifice that which is feeble to the Lord: for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the Gentiles.
Commentary from the Douay:
11 "A clean oblation"... Viz., the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.
13 "Behold of our labour"... You pretended labour and weariness, when you brought your offering; and so made it of no value, by offering it with an evil mind. Moreover, what you offered was both defective in itself, and gotten by rapine and extortion.
jwmcmac's comments continue:
Now what can you come up with from that? . . . the Church's understanding being clear from the beginning.
GOD Bless us all.