Discuss What Happens When We Die?

What Happens When We Die?

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Sooner or later all of us must face up to death. Energetic adolescents ignore it, and their middle-aged parents often pursue illusions of perpetual youth. But the elderly and terminally ill know better. Nothing in life is as certain as death. And we all wonder what happens when our friends and loved ones die.

Lzakaluk's picture

What Happens When We Die?

I believe that when we die our spirit immediately goes to Heaven. I believe the bible refers to our bodies sleeping because in essence that is what our bodies are doing, "sleeping" until Jesus' return when our spirits and our bodies are reunited. In 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18 it says the following:
Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There are two dimensions (spirit and body) involved in the resurrection, both of which are mentioned in this passage. On one hand, "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" (v. 14) This refers to the spirits of people who are currently in heaven. We know they are in heaven (and not just sleeping where their body was buried in the earth because this passage says they will return as God brings them with Him (Jesus).

The second dimension is the physical dimension. Versus 16 says, "The dead in Christ will rise first", referring to the physical body of those who had already died. What takes place in the resurrection (for those who have already died) is a reuniting of the spirit and body, which were separated at death.

At the resurrection, our corruptible and mortal bodies are made incorruptible and immortal by the power of God. God will transform our lowly body that I may be conformed to His glorious body (Philippians 3:21). The Bible teaches two wonderful, parallel truths: our spirits are immortal and our bodies will be resurrected.

masauso banda's picture

What Happens When We Die

No one goes to heaven when he dies. All who are dead are in their graves awaiting the coming of Jesus. the righteous will awake to eternal life but the sinners to condemnation.

JeffLogan's picture

At death the righteous enter into sleep awaiting resurrection

Isaiah 57
New American Standard Bible

    1 The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart;
    And devout men are taken away, while no one understands.
    For the righteous man is taken away from evil,

    2 He enters into peace;
    They rest in their beds,
    Each one who walked in his upright way.

They perish and enter into peace to rest in their beds (their graves).

Daniel 12
New International Version

    2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:
    some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

They awake from their sleep in the dust of the earth (their graves).

    13 “As for you, go your way till the end.
    You will rest, and then at the end of the days
    you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Daniel was told by the angle of God that at his death he would rest until the resurrection (at the end of the days you [Daniel] will rise to receive your allotted inheritance).

So again it teaches that at death we go to our sleep, we are at peace. We rest there until we arise at the end of time, the resurrection. No where does it teach we go to either heaven or hell at death.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Effects of wrongly assessing God's character

I was just listening to a story about a 65 year old man who at a very early age lost his mother. As a child people tried to comfort him with the words that Jesus took his mother to be in heaven. This man was angry at God his whole life. He reasoned, how could God care so little about me to selfishly take my mother to be with him with no regard to my feelings. And so he was angry with God.

But one night while watching a television interview he heard something pretty amazing. A little girl of 11 had just lost her mother and best friend in a car accident. Her family traveled and sang together and in an attempt to comfort her and her dad in their loss the interviewer said, "Well, just remember. God took your mommy because he needed another angel voice in His heavenly choir." The dad replied, "I don't believe God is selfish and cares so little about this little girl to take her mom from her just to fill a void in His heavenly choir. Jesus said that 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.' So it is the devil who took my wife trying to stop our ministry, not God."

The man was impressed by this testimony and called the station and spoke to the dad. He related his childhood story and asked if it was too late for him to ask God to be his Savior. At that the dad prayed with the man the sinners prayer and the man gave his heart to this God who gives life and doesn't come to steal or kill or destroy.

Have we been duped into presenting God as the thief of John 10 instead of the Good Shepherd, the Redeemer and Savior? Do we recognize God as the One who desires good for us and protects us? Or do we believe it is God who desires to see us come to harm, to hurt, and to suffer. Do we preach Jesus as if He were the roaring lion who seeks to destroy or do we preach Him as the Lamb?


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Let's just say...

Let's just say that there are two options

1) We go to heaven (or hell) immediately at death and there await the resurrection of our body
2) We go to the grave immediately at death and sleep in the dust until the resurrection

Now let's look at a relevant possibility.

Take two people. One believes that at death the person sleeps until the resurrection. The second believes that at death one goes directly into the presence of God to rest in Abraham's bosom.

Now they both go to bed and are sleeping soundly when at the midnight hour a hand reaches out and gently shakes them awakening them from their sleep. There, standing in a shimmering light is what appears to be their departed loved one. Perhaps a Mother, or Father, or spouse, or child, or sibling. The figures tells them, "Don't be afraid. It's me. I'm ok. I'm in heaven. Jesus loves you so much that He sent me to give you a warning." Then the figure begins to tell them things which will transpire in the near future and admonishes them concerning those events.

How will each of our two people respond? The one who stands solidly upon the belief that the dead know nothing, that they sleep awaiting the resurrection, and can have no part in anything anymore under the son, would have that belief as a shield against such a strong delusion. But what about the other person who believes that their departed loved ones are in heaven and aware of everything going on on earth? What will be their shield against such an overpowering delusion.

It will be a very difficult thing to do but the one who believes that the dead sleep should have no problem calling the apparition a demonic spirit and telling it to leave in the name of Jesus. But what about the other person who believes their love ones are in heaven and are ministering spirits. Will they be able to call the image a demonic spirit when it appears to be their loved one and speaks in the same tones and knows private things only shared by the two of them? Will they?

It is because of the danger of this strong delusion that I believe God has chosen the second method above, that the dead sleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection and are not aware of anything going on around them. How do you feel about this assessment? Do you think the person who believes in option 1 will have an "It is Written" to stand on and be a shield against the darts of the adversary?

In the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus Jesus quotes Abraham as answering the Rich man's request with these words. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Does this mean that the scriptures are to be our whole Armour, that we are to face these delusions with the same words as Christ used during His temptations on earth: "It is written."

Releveant Scripture about delusions:

  1. Luke 16: 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
  2. 2 Cor 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
  3. 1 Peter 5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
  4. 1 Tim 41Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
  5. 2 Thes 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  6. Rev 16:13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

RobynHerself's picture

Matthew 27:52-53

How does Matthew 27:50-54 fit into this scenario? (especially 52-53)

noprem's picture

Again Jesus called out with a

Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split. [I]And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people.[/I] But when the army officer and those with him keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and the things happening, they grew very much afraid and said: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

Doug

JeffLogan's picture

Soul and spirit

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

King James Bible

    For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Apparently soul is different from spirit.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

King James Bible

    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This is not speaking of the soul returning to God but the spirit, or breath.[1]

HELP Word-studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

    5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

    The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

So could it be that the soul really "sleeps" when we die awaiting the resurrection. Of course, that sleep refers to a state of unconsciousness.

    << Ecclesiastes 9 >>
    New American Standard Bible
    Men Are in the Hand of God
    2It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men.[2] Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

[1] Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Psalm 146:4 (ESV) When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalm 104:29 (NIV) when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.

[2] Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

those in Christ who have already died are lost

1 Corinthians 15

16 If those who have died are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised from death, then your faith is for nothing; you are still guilty of your sins. 18 And those in Christ who have already died are lost.

Already lost? What about Paul telling them they are already in heaven?

Paul finishes the chapter by describing how the resurrection is the Christian hope. Why doesn't he speak of souls in heaven? There must be a reason he is so silent, or if not silent then he is so vague.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

clothed and unclothed

We know that our body—the tent we live in here on earth—will be destroyed. But when that happens, God will have a home for us to live in. It will not be the kind of home people build here. It will be a home in heaven that will continue forever. But now we are tired of this body. We want God to give us our heavenly home. It will clothe us and we will not be naked. While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life. This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.

So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord. Our only goal is to always please the Lord, whether we are living here in this body or there with him. We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

BTW, if you didn't recognize it, this is from 2 Corinthians 5, Easy-to-Read Version (ERV).

So, Paul is saying that his desire is not to be without a body (unclothed) but to be clothed upon with an immortal body. And in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul told us that will happen when?

    1 Corinthians 15 (ERV)
    50 I tell you this, brothers and sisters: Our bodies of flesh and blood cannot have a part in God’s kingdom. Something that will ruin cannot have a part in something that never ruins. 51 But listen, I tell you this secret: We will not all die, but we will all be changed. 52 It will only take the time of a second. We will be changed as quickly as an eye blinks. This will happen when the last trumpet blows. The trumpet will blow and those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we will all be changed. 53 This body that ruins must clothe itself with something that will never ruin. And this body that dies must clothe itself with something that will never die. 54 So this body that ruins will clothe itself with that which never ruins. And this body that dies will clothe itself with that which never dies. When this happens, the Scriptures will be made true:

    “Death is swallowed in victory.”
    55 “O death, where is your victory?
    Where is your power to hurt?”

    56 Death’s power to hurt is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But we thank God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Why doesn't Paul explain that when we die we are naked (unclothed without a body) until the resurrection of our body. No, his desire is not to be unclothed but clothed upon with an immortal body.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Way to tree of life guarded

Genesis 3:22-24

    And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
    So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
    After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Here we see that the Lord guarded the way to the tree of life to prevent man from partaking of it and living forever. But food feeds the body only. The soul doesn't need food. The Lord knows that cutting off the body from the tree of life prevents man from living eternally. Evidently the soul is intrinsically linked to the body. Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Where is hell and when in the scheme of death

This post will address whether or not a person goes directly to hell fire when he dies. We will take a look at a few scriptures to follow the path of the wicked.

What is the cup the wicked will drink? What is their punishment?

    << Psalm 11 >>
    King James Version
    4The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
    5The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
    6Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
    7For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Where does this rain of fire and brimstone upon the wicked take place? Where do they drink their cup?

    << Revelation 20 >>
    King James Version
    7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

When does this happen? What does the scripture say?

    << Revelation 20 >>
    King James Version
    7And when the thousand years are expired, . . . they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does anyone else tell us when this occurs?

Jude talks about Christ's coming as the time period for this judgment. You can't punish until you've judged, right? At least not a righteous judge. And Christ is certainly Righteous.

    Jude
    14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

And Peter agrees with Jude that it will be after Christ's coming, or at least not before.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

And so does Malachi--agree with Jude and Peter, that is.

    << Malachi 4 >>
    New International Version 1984
    1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

Now what happens to the wicked? Do they survive the fires? Do they burn eternally?

Revelation 20 says the fires devours them. But of the devil, beast, and false prophet only it speaks of torment day and night for ever and ever. It doesn't use this term when speaking of the wicked. It says they are devoured by the fires. Malachi says they are turned to ashes and we tread them under foot. In other words, they become part of the landscape--so to speak.

Malachi says not a root or branch of them will be left but they will be ashes under the feet of the wicked. This makes since, that they will be ashes under our feet, if what John writes in Rev 20 is inspired because he says the fire rains down on them while the are upon the breadth of the earth, surrounding the beloved city.

Nowhere does scripture say that the wicked will burn forever and ever. Every place used to prove this fire burns them eternally can also be understood as a punishment that last forever such as the second death which hold no hope of resurrection. In other words, it is eternal. Our first death is not eternal, however. Christ says that everyone that is in the grave will come forth. Some to everlasting righteousness and some to everlasting condemnation. A man condemned to die does eventually die. He isn't forever condemned to dying, but to die. To yield up the breath of life to God and return to the dust from which he came.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Madeleine L'Engle also

Madeleine L'Engle also believed that a loving God would save everyone in His time. Her works were banned by Christians because of this belief, a belief prompted by her struggle with eternal punishment as evidenced by this statement of hers.

[QUOTE]"I cannot believe that God wants punishment to go on interminably any more than does a loving parent. The entire purpose of loving punishment is to teach, and it lasts only as long as is needed for the lesson. And the lesson is always love." --Christopher W. Morgan & Robert A. Peterson. Hell Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents Eternal Punishment. p. 171.[/QUOTE]

It's fairly obvious from her works, "A Wrinkle in Time," that she understood that love was the only force that could do successful battle with evil.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

The Right Relationship of the Soul and the Body

It seems that some believe that the soul and the body are independent of each other; that the soul can have an existence apart from the body. If this were the case then a bump on the head would only affect the body and only the body would lose consciousness. Surgery would not be possible because the soul would be conscious since only the body would be affected by the anesthesia. But this is not the case.

If the soul never loses its ability to think or reason, if it cannot "sleep" in unconsciousness, if the death of the body has no effect on the soul, then neither can a lesser thing such as traumatic brain injury or anesthesia have any effect on the soul. If the soul operates independent of the body and is not dependent upon the brain to think and reason, if death has no effect on it then neither can a lesser thing effect it. If there wasn't a close connection between the soul and the body then there could be no memory-loss disease such as Alzheimer's because the effect of age on the brain would have no effect on the consciousness and functional ability of the soul. Nor dementia. But this is not the case.

The truth is that God breathed into the dust the breath of life and man became a living soul. But at death the breath returns to God and the body returns to dust. That life-giving element from God is gone and the man dies and his ability to think ceases. But this does not mean that God cannot nor does not preserve the person just as they were at death because a day is coming when all that are in sheol (the grave) will come forth; every person who has ever lived will be resurrected. How He does this we don't know and don't really need to understand. We simply trust that when God says He will raise us up, He can and will do so according to His word.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Brain <> soul

I say the body and soul are interdependent on each other which does not say they are identically the same thing as you seem to be saying. Brain death and impact of illness on brain does not prove or disprove a soul separate from the physical brain of humankind. Such things impact the brain not necessarily the inner person. Your entire argument seems to be to equate the soul with the brain and then prove the brain can be compromised. Your argument from logic only prove there is a close connection between the brain and the rest of the biological function of the human body; but it does not prove the biological function of the human body is all there is to us, that there is no soul or that the soul goes to sleep when we die.

•"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
•"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
•These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

*** *** *** ===> Where the worm dieth not

A sleeping or annhilated person isnt paying a penalty of anything. Eternal fire only means something if the fire is felt forever. For some back darkness is reserved forever .... that speaks to me of being awake in torment not sleeping.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Jn 3:36). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009 (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.) (Mk 9:43–48). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

the worm dieth not ... the fire is not quenched --- fire isnt quenched because those who reject the Savior forever provide the fuel of themseleves for the fire. ... But He who believes in Him is not judged;

Submitted as a poster,

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Death the ultimate price to pay

Dan writes, "A sleeping or annhilated person isnt paying a penalty of anything."

Dan, I don't think this is a valid argument since the death of Jesus on the cross has the power to pay the penalty for the sins of the entire world. And it is certain that He is not eternally dying to pay for our sins but died once at the appointed time and rose again.

The Bibles says that the wages of sin is death and in the death of Jesus on the cross we see exactly what that scripture entail. Jesus died in our place. Now we ask, what type of death did He experience? We know He took our death upon Himself, He suffered the penalty required of us, and He paid our debt to the law. So what was this death that was ours? Was it eternally burning in hell fire? No, it was not. That should be a huge clue as to the penalty the wicked will pay. Christ drank the cup meant for us but those who do not accept Christ will drink that cup for themselves.

    9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;...

The wicked must drink their own cup, the cup Jesus drank for those who claim His blood.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Black darkness

Dan,

In reading your quote from Jude in the context I found further explanation of that darkness, I believe.

Jude 6 ..."the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

You wrote, "For some back darkness is reserved forever .... that speaks to me of being awake in torment not sleeping."

Seems the text speaks of the darkness as some sort of spiritual darkness as if it binds them until the day of judgment. But nothing eternal or forever as you mentioned.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul w/ brain function

Dan writes,

    I say the body and soul are interdependent on each other which does not say they are identically the same thing as you seem to be saying.

I hope I didn't say they were identical and I don't think I even suggested it because I often mentioned their interdependence which requires at least two objects. I think you read it too hastily.

Dan continues,

    Brain death and impact of illness on brain does not prove or disprove a soul separate from the physical brain of humankind. Such things impact the brain not necessarily the inner person.

Ah, but it suggests something. If when the brain is sleeping the soul is sleeping then that suggests a very strong interdependence. Not that they are one and the same but that perhaps the soul is dependent upon the brain for memory and reasoning. Again, not to suggest that who we are inwardly will perish when the brain dies but rather that when the breath leaves the body our soul is in God's hands. Not conscious, mind you, but neither perished--at least not until after the judgment.

Dan continues,

    Your entire argument seems to be to equate the soul with the brain and then prove the brain can be compromised. Your argument from logic only prove there is a close connection between the brain and the rest of the biological function of the human body; but it does not prove the biological function of the human body is all there is to us, that there is no soul or that the soul goes to sleep when we die.

Yes, it certainly doesn't equate the brain with the soul but it does indeed prove a close connection between the two, as you observed. And neither does it prove, nor am I saying, that the biological function is all there is to us. Nor that there is no soul. The Bible speaks of the soul again and again. But it does strongly suggest, if not prove, that the soul, however it is defined, is unconscious when the brain is unconscious.

Dan continues,

    *** *** *** ===> Where the worm dieth not

Yes, the worm dieth not. Do you take that to mean the person? Is the person the worm that doesn't die? Or, does it simply say that the worm, not the person, doesn't die? Long after the person has perished the worm will exist.

Dan continues,

    A sleeping or annhilated person isnt paying a penalty of anything.

Ah, then you don't believe death by lethal injection is a penalty paid by the criminal?

Dan continues,

    Eternal fire only means something if the fire is felt forever.

An eternal fire might also be a fire which consumes something for all eternity. It could mean the effect are eternal rather than the burning. However, many times in scripture God is referred to as a Consuming Fire or Eternal Fire.

In your quotation Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by an eternal fires for an example of how the wicked will be consumed. "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire". (Jude 7). Yet, they are not burning today. Rather, Sodom and Gomorrah were eternally consumed. The effects were eternal. But the fires themselves have gone out.

Dan continues,

    For some back darkness is reserved forever .... that speaks to me of being awake in torment not sleeping.

Yes, I can see how one might think that way. But what if you were raised believing that the black darkness is none other than the pit, the grave, or sheol, such as going down into darkness. Like an unknown place of the dead. Notice it says that the black darkness has been reserved for them forever. For all we know it refers to blindness, either spiritual or physical. But in this case I believe it refers to the grave where there is no light, either physical or spiritual.

Dan continues,

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
    New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Jn 3:36). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Notice that only those who believe in Jesus have eternal life. It would seem you desire to bestow eternal life on those who burn in hell for all eternity. They too live forever and thus have eternal life--something God promised only to those who believe.

    "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
    The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009 (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.) (Mk 9:43–48). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

More on this later...

Dan continues,

    the worm dieth not ... the fire is not quenched --- fire isnt quenched because those who reject the Savior forever provide the fuel of themseleves for the fire. ... But He who believes in Him is not judged;

The fire is not quenched--i.e., it does not go out naturally nor can man put it out. That is, until it goes out for lack of fuel. There have been natural fires which could not be quenched until the fuel burned up. The Dismal Swamp. Certain fuel fires. Tire fires. Etc... The fact that this fire cannot be quenched or is not quenched proves its Divine origin. In other words, it will accomplish its purpose.

...see next post


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Dangers of doctrine of eternal punishment

I believe that God's wrath involves eternal punishment but not eternal punishing. Eternal punishment is death without the possibility of resurrection. Eternal punishing is burning in hell fire for as long as God lives without the possibility of parole. There is a huge difference.

I believe the following is a quote from an infidel author. How would we answer such a charge? Can Christianity give a reasonable, rational, plausible explanation why they believe God can perpetrate such a cruel act on those He professes to love so much that He was willing to die for them? It does seem inconsistent with God's character that He should punish for all eternity those who reject Him. Human beings have been known to inflict wrath upon their fellow man for rejecting them but that is nothing compared to that which we attribute to God.

    Who can estimate the misery that has been caused by this most infamous doctrine of eternal punishment? Think of the lives it has blighted, of the tears it has caused -- of the agony it has produced. Think of the millions who have been driven to insanity by this most terrible of dogmas. This doctrine renders God the basest and most cruel being in the universe. Compared with him, the most frightful deities of the most barbarous and degraded tribes are miracles of goodness and mercy. There is nothing more degrading than to worship such a god. Lower than this the soul can never sink. If the doctrine of eternal damnation is true, let me share the fate of the unconverted; let me have my portion in hell, rather than in heaven with a god infamous enough to inflict eternal misery upon any of the sons of men.

    Heretics And Hericies (1874), by Robert Green Ingersoll. Courtesy of The Bank of Wisdom, run by Emmett Fields.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Let's look at annhilation closely - with some help

Lets look at your questions Jeff.

Is it hard to believe a God who inspired these words is NOT serious enough about salvation thru Christ as to hold people eternally accountable for rejecting Him?

"Thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5). (Remember hate is a relative term speaking to rejection)

TO the argument God is too merciful to allow eternal punishment for rejecting Christ, AW Pink offers this thoughtful conssideration "But if by the mercy of God be meant that He is too tenderhearted to apportion such miseries to His creatures, then we might as logically reason that seeing God's mercy, like all His attributes, is infinite, therefore, none of His creatures will be permitted to suffer at all. Yet this is manifestly erroneous. Facts deny it."

To the argument God is too just to allow eternal punishment for rejecting Christ, AW Pink offers "Sin has so enfeebled our power of righteous judgment, so darkened our understanding, so dulled our conscience, so perverted our wills, so corrupted our hearts, that we are quite incompetent to decide."

Finally,
Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The "soul" man is unable to kill! But God is able—and mark carefully the distinction—"to destroy (not kill) both soul and body in hell." As the word "destroy" is another word misused and erroneously defined by the Annihilationists, a few words must be said upon it. AWPink

As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc. never signify cessation of existence. In Matthew 10:7 one of the principal Greek words for "destroyed" is rendered "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Those Israelites had not ceased to be, but were away from God! In Mark 2:22 the same word is translated "marred" in connection with "bottles" of skins which the new wine burst. So, too, the word "perish" never signifies annihilation in Scripture. In 2 Peter 3:6 we read, "The world" that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." The "world" that perished, whether the reference be to the pre-Adamic earth or the world destroyed by the Flood, was not reduced to nothing. When, then, Scripture speaks of the wicked as perishing and as being destroyed, it is in order to expose the error of those who assert that they have a gospel for those who die unsaved, That the wicked have "perished" excludes all hope of their subsequent salvation. 1 Timothy 5:6 tells us there is a living-death even now—"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth"—so will there be in eternity. AW Pink

Now I believe it when I say we are responsible for what we post so before I quote where I got the above attributed to AW Pink I want to say I would not openly concur in this multidenominational setting with the views expressed in annhilationism are heretical .... That isnt our purpose so I didnt quote that part. I am not quoting that part and am providing the reference only to give credit for what I have quoted: http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html.

Submitted as a poster

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Challenging Alternatives -- Gone to be with the Lord

Attend any funeral today and most likely the preacher will say, "So-and-so has gone to be with the Lord."

But the Bible speaks of dead in Christ falling asleep. The Bible never uses the phrasology "gone to be with the Lord". The Bible always says fell asleep or sleeping.

It has been argued that the OT writers hadn't been informed about death by the Holy Spirit so they wrote their misconception of death into the Holy Scripture. But these verses all occur in the NT.

    Acts 7 stephen fell asleep and they buried him

    Acts 13 David fell asleep and was buried with his fathers

    John 11 Jesus speaks of Lazarus' death as sleeping and raises him from the grave

    Mt 9 / Mark 5 / Luke 8 Jesus speaks of young girl's death as sleeping and raises her

    1 cor 15 Paul talks about some brethren who have fallen asleep, that if Christ was not raised then those who have fallen asleep are lost, and that Christ has risen as the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, and that we shall not all fall asleep but will be changed in the twinkling of the eye from mortal to immortal.

    1 thes 4 Paul doesn't want us to grieve or be without hope concerning those who have fallen asleep, that Christ will raise them up first who have fallen asleep in Him and the living saints will join them in the air.

    2 pet 3 Peter talks about the fathers falling asleep

Here we have the inspired writings of Luke, John, Matthew, Mark, Paul, and Peter who all agree with the Old Testament writers. So it plainly appears the NT agrees with the OT that when a person dies they go to sleep (awaiting the resurrection of the dead). And should we expect anything less seeing there is One Spirit, One Lord and they change not? Job the righteous man speaks of death as sleep and expects to be awaken from the grave. Solomon the wisest man speaks of sleep as an unconscious state. Daniel the faithful prophet speaks of his own death as waiting in the grave for the Lord to wake him on that last day. But nowhere do I find anyone saying that at death "they've gone to be with the Lord." This appears to be something the church has at first adopted from Greek mythology and later adapted to Christianity. They turned the Greek Hades into Satan and the Greek concept of the Underworld into Hell.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Jeff said "'The Bible never/always .... EDITED

Jeff said "'The Bible never uses the phrasology "gone to be with the Lord". The Bible always says fell asleep or sleeping."

Always Jeff??

The passage quoted below refers to us and to our body describing the body as a house. I am more than this house and the groanings spoken of herein are to be "present with the Lord" which IMO is the same as "Gone to be with the Lord". My inner being is interdependent on the body but there is a conscious living internal being, inner man, that is alive and conscious apart from the body. These living and conscious spirits are our witnesses, perhaps in the crowd cheeting, in the great race of faith that we run. Either way they wouldnt be witnesses if they were napping at this time, would they?? The speaking spirits under the alter in Revelation are conscious inner beings without bodies at that time ... and a little while longer until that period is over.

Dan's reply - I appeal to Paul on this one:

5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (2 Co 5:1–10). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Submitted as a poster,

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Challenging Alternatives - Soul and Body

Challenging Alternatives

    Perhaps the most troubling challenge comes from Bible scholars and theologians who reject belief in the soul. They claim that the idea of a soul existing separate from the body is not taught in Scripture but comes from the Greek philosopher Plato. Plato's opposition of body and soul reflects an unbiblical dualistic worldview that desires to escape the body and life in the world. These scholars allege that this unbiblical dualism began to distort Christian teaching when church fathers, such as Augustine, mistakenly read the Bible in terms of Greek philosophy. The biblical view, they claim, affirms the unity of body and soul and the importance of life in this world. In order to engage this world with the gospel, they conclude that we must reject the belief that we have separable souls. But then we cannot exist with Christ between death and bodily resurrection. Instead, either we are resurrected immediately at death, or we do not exist at all between death and the future resurrection. Most mainline and some evangelical theologians challenge the traditional doctrine in this way.

Let's see why "most mainline and some evangelical theologians challenge the traditional doctrine in this way" by looking at some examples from scripture.

Enoch

    It is believed that Enoch was translated in bodily form without seeing death.

    Genesis 5:23Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24Enoch walked with God, and he was not,c for God took him.

Elijah

    It is beleived that Elijah was translated without seeing death. He went up with his body and is seen with Moses at the transfiguration.

    11And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more.

Jesus

    Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven. His disciples thought they had seen His spirit but they touched Him and He ate with them and they witnessed the scars in His flesh.

    Acts 1:9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Captivity

    It is believed that the saints resurrected at Christ's death accompanied Him to heaven in bodily form.

    Matthew 27:51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

    Eph 4:8Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

    Psalm 68:18 You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the LORD God may dwell there.

Mary

    The Catholic church teaches that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.

    Pope Pius showed the relation of the Assumption to the Immaculate Conception: "For these two privileges are most closely related to each other. Christ has overcome sin and death by His own death; and one who is reborn in a heavenly way through baptism has, through Christ Himself, conquered sin and death. However, in accord with His general rule, God does not wish to grant the full effect of victory over death to the just until the end of time shall have come.... Yet God wished that the Blessed Virgin Mary be exempt from this general law. For she, by a completely singular privilege, conquered sin in her Immaculate Conception, and thus was not liable to that law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, nor did she have to wait for the end of time for the redemption of her body" (AAS 42. 754).

Moses

    Moses died and was buried by God. Yet, the place of his burial is unknown.

    Deut 34:5(ESV) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day.

    Jude hints that Moses was resurrected by mentioning the contention over his body. And since Moses was present with Elijah at the transfiguration it is believed that God took him bodily into heaven as He did with Enoch and Elijah and the "Captivity."

    Jude 1:9(ESV) But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

So in all of these examples we find men being assumed into heaven in bodily form. All of these examples have secondary evidence in scripture of their bodily assumption into heaven except for Enoch and Mary. Scripture gives 1st witness that God took Enoch and men saw him no more. But there is no 2nd witness in scripture. With Mary there is no scriptural support at all thus it is dependent upon Catholic dogma(1). But Moses and Elijah we find at the transfiguration of Jesus. And Revelation speaks of a large group of people in heaven believed to be the "Captivity" that followed in Christ's train when He ascended to heaven. And of course, the whole plan of redemption hinges on Christ's resurrection and is attested to over and over in scripture.

Note 1: "There had been a problem of how the Pope could define the Assumption. There seemed to be nothing in Scripture on it, and what things there were in the Tradition of the Fathers seemed to come not from an apostolic origin, but from some apocryphal stories that circulated chiefly beginning in the fourth century. A Pope is not required to specify precisely where in the sources of revelation he finds a given doctrine. Yet, those documents often do review various things that at least in a way seem to support the teaching. We see an example of this in the Bull Ineffabilis Deus in which Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception." [source: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya5.htm, 1/14/2013]


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“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Challenging Alternatives

Challenging Alternatives

    "Other Christians have scientific questions. They wonder whether our souls can survive death because neuroscience demonstrates how extensively consciousness and personality depend on functions of the brain. When our bodies die, how can our minds and spirits still exist?"

This is a good question. To expound on it's ramifications let me pose more questions.

1) Why do souls need bodies? If the soul exists without the body in heaven what interface does it have to the outside world? Can it see, hear, smell, taste, touch, reason? Where are its senses? Where are its mental faculties?

2) And if it is sufficient without the body as some claim it is now in heaven, then why the resurrection? Why place it back inside a body?

3) If when we die we suddenly know all things, then why in earthly sleep and unconsciousness are we oblivious to what is going on around us? How closely is our soul dependent upon our body? Someone will say that when a man dies his soul immediately goes to heaven and is privy to more than he knew while on earth in his body. So let's see... a man is struck by an automobile and lies unconscious in the hospital unaware of what is going on about him. But as soon as he dies he suddenly knows everything. Is that how it is believed to work?

4) Why does the soul sleep on earth but can't sleep, or doesn't, at death? The soul must be capable of sleeping because we are unaware of what is going on about us when we sleep, when we are in a drunken stupor, and when we are knocked unconscious, or placed in a drug induced coma.

The following scriptures seem to indicate that the soul is dependent upon the body.

No remembrance of God in the grave

    Psalm 6:4 Turn, O LORD, deliver my life;
    save me for the sake of your steadfast love.
    5 For in death there is no remembrance of you;
    in Sheol who will give you praise?

This is not a wicked man talking here but a righteous man pleading for salvation. He is basically saying that it is to the Lord’s advantage to preserve his life as in the grave no one praises God. Implied is that while he is alive the righteous man can praise God.

We can sing to the Lord while we have subsistence

    Psalm 104:33 I will sing to the LORD as long as I live;
    I will sing praise to my God while I have being.
    34 May my meditation be pleasing to him,
    for I rejoice in the LORD...
    24 O LORD, how manifold are your works!
    In wisdom have you made them all;
    the earth is full of your creatures...
    27 These all look to you,
    to give them their food in due season...
    when you take away their breath, they die
    and return to their dust.
    30 When you send forth your Spirit, they are created,...
    35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth,
    and let the wicked be no more!
    Bless the LORD, O my soul!
    Praise the LORD!

There is already a contrast here between the righteous and the wicked. “Let sinners be consumed from the earth and let the wicked be no more.” So here, again, a righteous man is saying that while he has his being, his body, he will sing praise to the Lord. Does this imply that when this righteous man dies and his soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord that he will no longer praise the Lord? Or, does it mean that those who sleep in the dust of the ground waiting for the resurrection are silent until they are awakened from the sleep?

The trusting living, not the dead, can praise God

    Psalm 115:1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory,
    for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!
    2 Why should the nations say,
    “Where is their God?”
    3 Our God is in the heavens;
    he does all that he pleases.
    11 You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD!
    He is their help and their shield.
    12 The LORD has remembered us; he will bless us;
    17 The dead do not praise the LORD,
    nor do any who go down into silence.
    18 But we will bless the LORD
    from this time forth and forevermore.
    Praise the LORD!

Here the righteous man is reasoning with God that should the nation of Israel be destroyed who will give praise to God? For as long as they are alive and have being, forevermore, they will continue from this time forth to praise the Lord.

We praise with our bodies and tongues if spared from death

    Psalm 35:1 Contend, O LORD, with those who contend with me;
    fight against those who fight against me!
    ...Say to my soul,
    “I am your salvation!”...
    9 Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD,
    exulting in his salvation.
    10 All my bones shall say,
    “O LORD, who is like you,...
    28 Then my tongue shall tell of your righteousness
    and of your praise all the day long.

Again, the righteous man is asking God to spare his life from his enemies. Then his soul will rejoice in the Lord and all his bones will praise the Lord and his tongue will tell of His righteousness. The implication is the same as the other verses—that the dead praise not the Lord.

Our souls sing God's praises while we have being

    Psalm 146:1 Praise the LORD!
    Praise the LORD, O my soul!
    2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live;
    I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
    3 Put not your trust in princes,
    in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
    4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth;
    on that very day his plans perish.

Again, the saint will praise the Lord as long as he lives. He will sing praises to God while he has his being. But when a man dies his plans perish. The same theme as the other scriptures. Implied is that the dead cannot sing praises to God. Why write this if the soul goes immediately to heaven to praise God there?

    Psalm 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul,
    and all that is within me,
    bless his holy name!

Again, the soul is linked to a body—“all that is within me”.

The dead awake to sing for joy!

    Isaiah 26:13 O LORD our God,
    other lords besides you have ruled over us,
    but your name alone we bring to remembrance.
    14 They are dead, they will not live;
    they are shades, they will not arise;
    to that end you have visited them with destruction
    and wiped out all remembrance of them.
    [but]19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
    You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
    For your dew is a dew of light,
    and the earth will give birth to the dead.
    20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
    and shut your doors behind you;
    hide yourselves for a little while
    until the fury has passed by.
    21 For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place
    to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
    and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
    and will no more cover its slain.

The same theme. The dead arise from the dust and sing for joy! What song do they sing? See the next verse for their victory song.

This victory song is sung when the dead in Christ, e.g. those who sleep in Christ, are raised in the resurrection

    1 Cor. 15:54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

Why would the souls in heaven not be singing this song before the resurrection of their bodies and their putting on immortality if they already had immortality and were already in heaven well aware that they had escaped death? It makes no sense unless they are sleeping in their graves awaiting this resurrection, awaiting this change. Then when it occurs, at the appointed time at Christ’s coming, they will sing when the arise, as Isaiah just spoke of in chapter 26 and verse 19. “You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.”

If anyone wants a clearer picture of what happens when we die a good read of 1 Cor. 15 would be of much help.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Fires consume wicked Malachi 4 and 2 Peter 3

Both of these verses, one OT and one NT, speak of a future fire which burns the wicked. And both allude to their complete and utter annihilation.

Mal 4

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

2 Peter 3

5...by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


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“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Missed point on Mal 4 and 2 Peter 3 Jeff

Mal 4 tells us the wicked will ultimately perish from the earth, and they will, while the righteous will inherit the earth. The renewed earth, on which the New Jerusalem will rest, will be our final home and the wicked will never walk on it. This simply means they will perish from this earth not that they will perish altogether. The passage in 2 Peter is also speaking of the cessation of the wicked on this earth when the new heaven and new earth is created (end of revelation). The wicked will one day not exist anymore on this earth; which does not prove or disprove the continued existence elsewhere. We know we will either exist in Abraham's bosom which is the paradise where Jesus welcomed the thief or we will exist in torment without even a drop of water. And our body will sleep in death until the resurrection and the complete person enters the final place of either the renewed heaven/earth or the lake of fire.

Submitted as a poster,

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

But what about the, the, the...

But Dan,

Look at the plain text of Mal. 4 (NIV):

    1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace.
      All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble,

      and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty.

      Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

    2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings.

      And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

    3Then you will trample down the wicked;

      they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

Put another way...

1. a day comes when the wicked will be set on fire [they will burn like chaff or stubble]
2. not a root or branch will be left of them [did the fire consume them?]
3. you will walk on the wicked [on this earth I presume]
4. they will be ashes under the soles of your feet [ashes to ashes and dust to dust]
5. on the day when I [burn them up and turn them to ashes]

Here I invoke Brother Lee's rule to read the text as it is written. I think it's pretty literal.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Do people really die

When discussing the state of the soul at death I have often been left with the impression that many people no longer believe a person can die. In fact, they say that the verse which speaks of the penalty for transgressing God's law refers not to actual death but merely spiritual death. Yet, the verse contrasts death with eternal life. It says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life."

Are we to interpret this scripture to mean that even those who disobey God will be allowed to continue adding sin to sin and blaspheming God's name for all eternity?

There is, indeed, a spiritual death. Jesus said that some men were dead even though they were walking around. But He also said that even though believers die they will live again. Did He mean to say that even though unbelievers die they will live again because He couldn't destroy them because their souls were immortal? And, again, the gospel teaches us that our natural man dies but our spiritual man is quickened by the Spirit of God. All these metaphors, parables, and analogies tend to confuse us, IMO. We get things conflated because we don't understand.

Yet another thing that confounds me is that if the soul is immortal then where did it get this immortality? It must have been given to them from God since He is the source of all life. But didn't God place an angel at the entrance to Eden so that Adam and Eve couldn't gain access to the tree of life? And if God made it immortal does that mean He is incapable of destroying it? Is it beyond His power to touch it? Jesus did say to fear God who could destroy both body and soul in hell. Did He understand something we've overlooked?


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

not sure how free to sin in eternal fire

It is a poor argument against an eternal damnation to claim it unjustly allows sin to continue to exist. That isnt relevant if scripture supports eternal punishment, is it?

Death and perish do not connote ceasing to exist or annhilation
The penalty of eternal destruction cannot be annhilation for someone who is separated from God's glory and presence could not be forever separated if they merely ceased to exist. To be forever separated from God implies continued or immortal existence NOT annhilation.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (2 Th 1:6–12). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Those thrown into the eternal furnace of fire will have no motivation to continue actively sinning; but will not be a stumbling block to the righteous any longer.
41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Mt 13:41–42). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

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In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Does torment call forth blessings or cursings

Reply to: not sure how free to sin in eternal fire, Submitted by DanFugett on Mon, 2013-01-07 16:47.

Dan writes, "It is a poor argument against an eternal damnation to claim it unjustly allows sin to continue to exist. That isnt relevant if scripture supports eternal punishment, is it?"

And again, "Those thrown into the eternal furnace of fire will have no motivation to continue actively sinning; but will not be a stumbling block to the righteous any longer."

Dan, if you look at the experiences in Egypt and then the prophetic view of the last plagues you will see that the wicked do not bless God for their punishment but rather they harden their hearts and blaspheme His name. It seems you are painting an unrealistic picture of eternal hell fire if you believe the wicked will writhe in pain with smiles on their faces and lovely thoughts of Jesus. That is not the case at all. What would happen, if hell fires were to burn eternally, is the wicked will be cursing God's name for all eternity bringing more guilt upon themselves and therefore worthy of more punishment--in other words, a perpetuation of sin for all eternity. Now it is possible that for a short time they may plead for mercy hoping to escape further punishment but when they learn their fate is to burn for as long as God lives then their facade will cease and they will curse God. And that is a perpetuation of sin of the worse kind. God will not hold them blameless who take His name in vain. But you have this strange notion that they will be at peace in the fires. But doesn't the Bible say somewhere that they gnaw their tongues in pain and gnash their teeth?

Dan writes, "Death and perish do not connote ceasing to exist or annhilation
The penalty of eternal destruction cannot be annhilation for someone who is separated from God's glory and presence could not be forever separated if they merely ceased to exist. To be forever separated from God implies continued or immortal existence NOT annhilation."

But the Bible uses words such as perish, consumed, burned up, destroyed, and ashes under our feet so that when we encounter phrases such as eternal damnation or everlasting punishment will will understand that those who die the second death will never have any hope of a future resurrection. That is the eternity of their damnation, their everlasting punishment. And, regarding death, those who are connected to God have life but those who are disconnected from God do not have life. Thus, death is the result of being separated from God. If is only because of God's mercy that the wicked are in this life permitted to exist. They have a period of probation in which to determine their eternal destiny.

So what you have said does not prove that there is any such doctrine such as eternal hell fires taught in scripture. It's a syncretic doctrine--partly Christian and partly mythology.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

JeffLogan's picture

Heidelberg Catechism

The OP referred to Q and A 58 of the Heidelberg Catechism but it doesn't seem to fit. Did I get the right version of the catechism or did the author err?

I found it here ==> http://reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/heidelberg.html


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Perhaps 57 not 58

Question 57. What comfort does the "resurrection of the body" afford thee?

Answer: That not only my soul after this life shall be immediately taken up to Christ its head; (a) but also, that this my body, being raised by the power of Christ, shall be reunited with my soul, and made like unto the glorious body of Christ. (b)

(a) Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Philip.1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philip.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (b) 1 Cor.15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor.15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Philip.3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Spirit (breath) returns to God at death

Eccl 12:7

If Eccl 12:7 teaches that the soul goes to heaven at death, even though a better interpretation would be breath, and it doesn't distinguish between a good soul and a bad soul, is there a complimentary verse which says that wicked souls go to eternally burning hell fires? I could not find one. I don't think it exists.

    5“…because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach: breath, wind, spirit) shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:5-7).”

This verse really teaches that whether or not ruach is translated spirit or soul the reference is so general that it must apply to all spirits or all souls. Thus, the only thing it could prove is that all spirits or souls go to the same destination.

A better interpretation would be that the word ruach, here translated spirit, would be better if translated breath--as in the breath of God which He breathed into the dust of man to make him a living soul.

Look at a verse in James: Faith without works is dead being alone. We could also reason from the story of creation that: the body without the breath of life is dead being alone. If it was just dust before God breathed into it the breath of life then it stands to reason that when that breath of Life returns to God the body dies and decays and eventually returns to the dust. It breaks down into its elementary components. We have empirical evidence to support that latter.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

DanFugett's picture

Who said ruach better translated breath than spirit?

The better translation of the word ruach, as employed by the translators, was based on context. Ruach can stand for wind or breath or spirit. Scripture has many original words that the people who know the language agree are better translated. I am not an expert in the original languages but I would be interested in a non-SDA major resource that support this position.

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In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

beemanlee's picture

RE: ...Ruach HaKodesh...

Brother Dan,

There is a difference in how you use the Hebrew when you mean the Holy Spirit.

Kodesh in Hebrew means Holy and Ruach capitalized means Spirit not breath or wind, but both have the same meaning and direct us to G-d's Breath, or G-d Breathed, which is equivalent to G-d's Breath and The English Language words, The Holy Spirit.

So The Holy Spirit would be spoken as Ruach HaKodesh in the Hebrew Language.

Check out this information about The Hebrew Language:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html

Shalom, Lee...

DanFugett's picture

Very enjoyable to see the Heb names Lee

Thanks for sharing these. It is indeed powerful to see the connection between the entire Bible found in the terminology as presented here.

Submitted as a poster,

Dan

In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

JeffLogan's picture

Regarding Ecclesiastes 12:7, Part 3

Eccl 12:7 Part 3

We were looking at Ecclesiastes 12:7 and what actually returns to God at death. In part 1 we saw that the word translated spirit here is synonymous with “breath of God” elsewhere in scripture; and that interpreting “spirit” here as “the breath of God” (of life) would harmonize with the words of God to Adam when He told him that man was taken from the dust and to the dust he would return—pointing to the utter destruction of life. In part 3 we saw that if the word translated spirit really means soul then it would teach that all souls, good or bad, go to God at death. This is Universalism at its core which is not popularly believed or taught.

Here we will look at another verse in this passage to give more context.

    v5 “…because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:5-7).”

The phrase “long home” has been translated in other versions as “eternal home”. The word itself, olam, means everlasting.

Notice this passage in Job which is similar.

    "If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust." (Job 17:13-16)

It speaks of resting in the grave for a long time. It doesn’t speak of going to heaven at death.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

beemanlee's picture

RE: ...resting in the grave...

Brother Jeff,

When you study The Book of Job, you are looking forward in Time, from the distant past. This distant past did not have the forward understanding that Christ has given to us today with both His Life and testimony with His Physical Death and the Grave experience as well as his Physical Ascension into The Heaven of heavens.

But Today we have The New Testament to also help us understand The Old Testament far better about some of the questions you bring up.

Dan has given you all that you need to help you understand this point.

It is the same point you bring up time and again, and still there is not a firm foundation or the understanding being known in your knower.

Our Faith is from G-d and He is the only One that can enable you by His Grace to Understand His Ways. So Seek G-d at all times, and He will answer all of the many questions you have posed here in The Forum. Ask Him in your Meditation on His Word, He will Direct you pathway when you are honestly Seeking G-d Face in Prayer. You must Cry out and expect the answer to be given to you concerning most of your questions about G-d Holy Word.

The easies way to understand the totally is be honest before G-d and pour your heart to him with all of your questions. It is God's Holy Spirit which is known in Hebrew as The Ruach HaKodesh/ The Holy Spirit!

Job is looking forward to Spiritually Soul being with G-d in Sheol, yet his body is physically destroyed in the grave, His Resurrection Body will be a New glorified Body, but still recognizable, so he will be know as he is know by other believers in G-d's Way of Living found within The Torah.

Here is a location where you can study the Hebrew Names of G-d:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html

So I hope I have helped you in your search for more information concerning The Hebrew for Christians to understand more clearly.

Shalom, Lee...

JeffLogan's picture

Is the OT inspired

Lee, do you hold that the OT is the inspired Word of God and is that which Peter wrote about with these words?

20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Then, since this is true, that God inspired men to write, then your reasoning is incorrect when you say, "This distant past did not have the forward understanding that Christ has given to us today with both His Life and testimony with His Physical Death and the Grave experience as well as his Physical Ascension into The Heaven of heavens...But Today we have The New Testament to also help us understand The Old Testament far better about some of the questions you bring up." That almost sounds as if you are suggesting that perhaps God didn't know the future destiny of man in the OT times either--which of course is utter nonsense. So can you explain what you meant to say?

It is true that scripture says that the appearance of Christ has brought life and immortality to light. But is isn't a subject that God got wrong in the OT. The OT teaches it as well and is the very scriptures the Apostles reasoned from when teaching. It became clearer but it didn't all of a sudden make a u-turn or a detour. God didn't have to say, uh, wait a minute, I got that wrong in the OT.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

beemanlee's picture

Re: So can you explain what you meant to say?

Brother Jeff,

I agree with Peter's description that all Scripture is Divine Inspiration by The Holy Spirit/Ruach HaKodesh, or G-d Breathed!

This is all very simple and is not a very deep study. The information which G-d gave, was information "in part" through Prophesy and was not complete. When Christ, The Messiah of The Jews came, then "all things" were Completed in The Prophesy about Christ's Redemption Price for His Israel! It was only then that all things pertaining to The Messiah, Paying the Price of our Redemption with His Physical Life's Blood Sacrifice was the Ancient Prophecy fulfilled.

You see, not everything was given to any one Prophet, But G-d does know the exact timing of all things, both in the past and in our future as well. So what you are doing is giving a case of the strong man and accusing me of being wrong. If you look at what I pointed out, it was simple to understand.

I'll say it again to you in a easier way. Job for instance, was only going by what information G-d had gave him, Divinely through The Rauch HaKodesh/The Holy Spirit, it was not the Big Picture, but it was a view that Job did need to understand. G-d did not say everything, because there was no reason to do that to Job. Job knew G-d, and he had Faith in and believed G-d! That is my point. He was persuaded by G-d's Enabling Power through His Grace , Mercy and Love, and Job believe G-d and that is an example of Faith in action in Job's life! With Faith there must also come the Action on our part that enables us to believe G-d, and that is G-d's Grace upon us.

You can debate all day on your argue mental point, that I am wrong, but in the end The actual Words of Scripture are saying differently than what you think that I had meant to say. Never is man's way higher than G-d's Way! So do you understand my point that G-d does know the end from the beginning of all things. But we do not know this ending in our life as G-d does.

But we are His Created Creatures and do not know everything that is in The Heart of G-d. We are limited Beings and G-d has no limit. We do not see all thing as G-d does see. We therefore are limited and G-d is omnipresent. That is everywhere all at one time.

So please try to understand that I'm trying to help you over come with this point and go beyond our limit switches to get all that G-d is saying to us today about Who He IS.

I hope I have helped you brother Jeff.

beemanlee's picture

RE: is The OT Inspired

Brother Jeff,

The information we receive from G-d in The Torah is most definitely G-d Inspired. In fact the Hebrew information on just that point alone, by using the term Face to face. That information is always referring to G-d and Moses being Face to face with each other on top of Mount Sinai. So you are asking me; Is The Tahakh Divinely Inspired? And the correct answer is: All Scripture is Divinely Inspired of G-d unto Holy men of old!

In fact that question comes up in the very first year of Bible School, in the very first semester of Bible School. When I was first learning the correct way we are to look at The Scriptures was in the Study of Hermeneutics, which is presenting The correct Way of Biblical Interpretation of The Scriptures. I believe that question also came up in my High School Sunday School Bible Study Class as well. The Professor of that Bible Class was a graduate of Moody Bible Collage of Chicago, Illinois. That School is now called a Moody Bible Institute.

To come to the correct way of understanding The Scriptures, we are to follow The Context of the Words being said, then those Words must also align up with the rest of G-d's Holy Word, to even enter into a position of being G-d Breathed or Rauch HaKodesh Inspired, or Divine Inspiration. Then it is placed within The Text of The Scriptures. Many older Jewish Book have been removed from the context of The Scriptures within The Jewish Bible, The Tanakh, for this reason alone.

I hope this helps you understand this Basic Biblical idea.

Shalom, Lee..

DanFugett's picture

OT is inspired but not complete Bible without NT EDITED

I agree with you Lee.

Moses told us to hear the coming prophet. That wast because He would contradict Moses but because He had a more complete revelation to show us. The author of Heb also says the prophets spoke to us in different ways but in these end times Jesus has spoken (idea of completion and finality). Again this is because we get a close up view of the mystery that was hidden for ages and which the Old Testament saints only saw far off. I think we find a more complete revelation of heaven and hell in the New Testament which we lose if we just look at the Old Testament. Yet even in the Old Testament the concept was present that while there was silence in the grave the righteous praised God for eternity.

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In Christ,

Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

DanFugett's picture

Addendum

That is, when I look just at old testament scriptures I have difficulty finding an eternal conscious torment for the wicked but even there the righteous will praise Him forever. That is, I dont believe you can support soul sleep for the righteous looking just at the old testament. I can see where one could draw the conclusion EGW and others drew about annhilation of the wicked if one based their theology only on the Old Testament. IMO this is as Faulty a "hermeneutic' (which was my favorite class too) as Marcion who considered none of the Old Testament inspired by God.

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Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

beemanlee's picture

And a Comment About EG White

Brother Dan,

What I have consider about EG White's teaching problem was how she become separated from Orthodoxy at the point of her idea of souls sleeping in the grave. This Teaching is not from a correct Biblical interpretation, which was already known among The Scholastically correct teaching. This was never a part of OT understanding by The Hebrews, or NT Teaching by The Early Church Fathers.

This idea of EGW, is not Biblically correct. The Bible points out, that our body goes back to its elements at death. The worms do their job and it returns to dust. Dust to dust says The Scriptures! The Word does not say anything about sleeping in the grave for our soul. Our physical body is destroyed in the grave, only our bones remain to tell the story of our life which did posses physicality at one point in time.

The Soul today returns to be with G-d in The Heaven of Heavens.

In The Biblical OT Teaching, the souls of mankind were at a Place of conscious awareness and not sleeping at all. It was this Place that The Messiah went down to, after His physical Death on The Roman Cross and there lead those OT saints, who were The Remnant of Israel, or The Redeemed, who had already died, and were in the captivity at The Place known as Sheol, and were in the compartment of Abraham's Bosom, to Spiritual Freedom in The Heaven of heavens with G-d, The Father.

At The Resurrection, our or physical bodies, our souls which are with G-d, will receive a Glorified New Body, and not the same old body that has been roting in the grave into dust. If the elements are to come back to life in The Physical Resurrection, G-d will enable by His Grace what ever it takes to fashion us again and be recognizable to others as we were in our Earthly body in life.

So, I do not agree with EG White and The SD Adventist teaching of a soul sleeping in the ground idea, at all.

Shalom, Lee...

DanFugett's picture

Remember Lee understand <> agree

I concur that the hermeneutic is faulty, IMO, but the SDA are welcome to have the view and it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong. I can tell you why the theory doesnt work for me and why I reach another conclusion from scripture. I can see how one could reach the conclusion if they perhaps gave more weight to the OT passages than all the passages on the topic in the entire Bible but that doenst mean I concur with it biblically or logically.

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Dan Fugett, Sr Moderator
dfugett2010@gmail.com

beemanlee's picture

SDA Belief along with other Christian Beliefs

Brother Dan,

I also agree with you that Jeff is not wrong or right. The case is not a debate we can choose to agree we have so differing ideas about death and the grave.

I'm going to tell you a story about my dad during my years growing up, well almost grown up. So don't laugh until you have read the short story first, which is about my development of Faith is G-d's Way of Living in life through many different struggles.

And brother Jeff this is not about you but it was a view on this soul sleep idea in your Theology, compared to what my dad's Lutheran point of view would be saying about it, which I remember very vividly, as the way my dad loved to joke about almost everything in life. Somethings that were very out of the ordinary for his belief system was very basic. So my story would be something like this; A Dutchman who was a fisherman and didn't like the water in the Zider Zee, which was all dry reclaimed seabed with flowers and gardens growing in it, and no water for miles. So as to show you the style of joking he would enjoy listening to or joking about while drinking a bear with a neighbor on Saturday afternoon.

So here is what I heard as a boy from my father and a neighbor having a beer break on a Saturday afternoon summer day.

This was a time very early in my life, some time after my 10th birthday, that I heard my dad talking to a neighbor from down the street, who was speaking with him about death, that it was soul sleep which was how G-d said death would be like. I remember my dad's answer back to him was a mater of fact remark with; Well, I'll have to pass this beer through my kidneys first before I'll give you my answer! That was The Irish on my mothers side coming through, which he seemed to like to respond with in a joking way, and with a slight chuckle style of attitude that also has a very big grin added. My dad's father was Dutch and my great grandmother was Native American Sioux Nation. That was quite a clash of attitude to be mixed up with from a Lutheran point of view and a few beers already downed that Saturday morning too.

But even my dad would like to joke about religious ideas from ever way of life, and I did have many different styles of Worship Service which I grew up with.

Even The "hook and eye" Dutch would be the point of joking about in the small(30,000 people) Manufacturing town of Waterloo, Iowa. They would buy a farm and then strip out all of the wiring, indoor pluming and piping. So there was much to discuss on the Saturday morning, including The local JW's walk about through the neighborhood!

And of course the talk for me was about what my Irish Catholic friends had to study in their Catechism class on that Saturday morning at Sacred Heart Church.

So I was very aware of the many different Christian Churches growing up as a boy in Waterloo.

Of course the best joke was on Sunday just after our Church finished morning Worship, my brother would turn the radio in the Ford station wagon eight seater, to a Christian station which had Kathryn Kuhlman, a Baptist speaker who had in her normal way of high to low excited English Language, which was very out of the ordinary way to talk in The Midwest of America which most people had a very plain way of speaking. So we had a lot of laughing and I learned about the many healing crusades that were going on in and around Iowa and Mason City area over the radio. My brother joined the Baptist church and so this was very different for us as Baptist to even know about Healing or of Miracles happing on the radio program.

So I have experienced a vast array of Spiritual Beliefs, but having a woman Baptist Minister Healing people, was a very way-out of the ordinary thing for a Baptist let alone a woman to have this type of program airing on a Sunday after Church afternoon. In fact Kathryn Kuhlman was a person of Faith that opened my Spiritual eyes to The actual Truth found in G-d's Word concerning what G-d can do in anyone's life!

Later in my teen years I was exposed to the teachings of Oral Roberts and he also opened my eyes and ears to even more Biblical information about what G-d can do in a persons life who is sick or dieing and seeking G-d for His touch in their life.

As a Baptist this was about to bust me out of the lack of true faith type of life I was living through my High School years. I was always growing in God's Grace as I was learning much more about what The Bible offered the Christian Way in life and understand more about all of the different Beliefs that all of friend had. Even though I was teach some of my High School friend about G-d, my Jewish friends soon discovered my use of Jesus name was out of bounds for me to talk about to them. I found out later on that it was swear word and was never used in public, but they would use Jesus as in a joke, and as a curse word.

So that was what I discovered growing up in Waterloo, Iowa as a boy going to Sunday School and Church should grow up doing.

So there you have most of my story, but not all of the story.

My mother grew up in the Christian Science Church of Mary Baker Eddie. She was a woman of Faith, and would teach Sunday School on Sunday mornings, but my father did not attend, because he said it was more like a cult than a Church. But my brother did not say anything bad or good about it, he was 20 years older than me. This was very early in my life at 8 years old. It was only a year later that I watched my mother die of a operable cancer that the medical Doctors could have Operated on and saved my mother's life. The Christian Science Church did not believe in Medical Doctors or Medicine or any kind of pills like aspirin for pain, and my mother was later on in so much pain that my dad put her is a cancer specialist in Iowa City. So this also change my life around as a boy. I never saw my mother alive after that day. I did see her dead body which was a heart wrenching experience for me and my sister who took it very hard and eventually lead to my dad's heart break and death.

I have seen both extremes in The Church. From Word of Faith to The Christian Science way of healing with practitioners. The Christian Science work on the sensational side with dramatical presentation, just for the show. While The Word of Faith believe that getting their message across to people about their Healing is already on the way. Not that The Word of Faith Churches don't teach G-d's Word, they too have a name it and claim it type of Faith, but for the Christian Science Faith, I did a direct turning about from this Church as a boy and never went back. This was very wrong for The Christian Science Church to put young children through this kind of physical and mental toucher, as well as causing my father to commit suicide because he allow my mother to do what she wanted with her sickness, out an concern for the family. All of this has affected my trust in any Church type of people over the years, and what someone says is the Truth, without backing it up with The Scriptures, is a gone belief, within my life. "Seeing and tasting the pudding" comes first before the results are ever shown to me. But I do Trust G-d's Word over an man or his Theology which can not be shown to me in The Bible where and what it is about and at in The Scriptures.

So I have seen and went through many different types of Christian Churches and seen what their Theology has done as a belief. In my own life and in my walk with G-d over the many years that I have know The Salvation of G-d within my life and putting my hand in the Hand of The L-rd, My Redeemer, My Jesus, The Christ and The Perfect Lamb of G-d.

I am now almost 68 years old, and consider my Faith and my Trust is still in G-d! His Provision for my sin, that I have rebelled against G-d to do, which is Yeshua HaMachiach, The Savior of The World, to be the best decision I ever made in my life. The second would be my marriage to Karin, my wife of over 40 years, with 3 adult children and 3 grandchildren.

So you can see brothers Jeff and Dan that G-d has carried me a very long way in Faith, Love and especially His Grace toward me, as a lost sinner that G-d Chose to Seek after him more than anything else in life. This is how I have arrived at my understand through Faith in G-d and His Provision of Salvation from Spiritual Death is the what that you need in life for what it takes to reach the correct understand that G-d has to offer to any one of His Created Creatures, can be New Person, a New Man/Woman in The Kingdom of G-d right here and right now!

Shalom, Lee...

beemanlee's picture

The Prophetic

Brother Dan,

I believe the real problem is; We do not consider how G-d works through the reading of His Word. We can read His Word and see one thing and the next time we read the same Text, we get another Revelation about G-d and His kingdom. With each new reading of the same Text, we receive a new point G-d is opening up to us. This is what is called Wisdom and only G-d's Holy Spirit can bring this Wisdom to each of us each who Humbly read again G-d's Word.

But then again if we think we already know the answer, nothing will be revealed to us by G-d's Holy Spirit.

So it is The Humble of heart that reads to understand and Seeks G-d's Face to know what is The Divine Revelation of G-d today from His Holy Words in The Bible. That we will gain G-d's understand and have applied that understanding to our life and work which then allows us even more understanding to come to our forefront in our life. This I believe is knowing The Fathers Heart, which is Love unspeakable with all Joy toward His Children.

Knowing G-d's Presence in our daily life and have the actual visualization of walking each day with G-d in Fellowship and with personal Prayer with Him. This is seeing and knowing The Personal Heart of our Father in Heaven, and to Hear His Voice of Love towards us as His Children are to do. We must not hesitate, but jump into His Arms as any child will do to receive Comfort in their Fathers Arms and sit in His Lap. It is this visual, with His Arms of Love in The Embrace that we fail to understand how much Love G-d has for His Israel, His Church, His Bride, and His Love for us is Eternal. This is knowing The Father's Heart of Love towards His Children, and being apart of His Family.

But are we willing to embrace our Heavenly Father as a small child does in complete Surrender to G-d's Loving Embrace of our life before Him? I would hope many Christians will see this, The Fathers Heart of Love for His Created Creatures.

Shalom, Lee...

JeffLogan's picture

This is a prophetic utterance

Lee says, "But then again if we think we already know the answer, nothing will be revealed to us by G-d's Holy Spirit."

That is true, brother Lee. Remember Jesus said that the righteous did not need a Savior but sinners did? I think He meant that not everyone considers themselves in need of a Savior rather than that there were some so righteous they didn't. Likewise, when we feel no need to learn we cannot be benefited by knowledge--or, in the case of Bible knowledge, we cannot benefit from Truth.

So our prayer should be that we never come to the point where we feel we have a patent on truth. If we come to that point then it could very well be that even the Holy Spirit can't approach us. What do they say, "Pride goeth before a fall"? Or, was that scripture?

So, again, let's pray we never come to the place where we think we already know the answer. I guess we wouldn't be here if we felt that way. Well, I guess that's not entirely true. Some have come to set others straight.

I struggle with the same battles against arrogance and pride as you; thinking that my belief system is correct and another's is not. That may prove fatal if we don't get the victory. Let's keep our minds open and continue a good discussion. Let's learn to be hearers and thinkers instead of lecturers. Will you help me?


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

beemanlee's picture

No Man Has a Patent on Truth.

Brother Jeff,

I will agree with you on that point my brother, you have pointed out about a person being so Heavenly minded that he has no earthly good, to even the saints of G-d, and he can miss The Holy Spirit that wants to walk and talk with him about what he has already said, through all of his chattering about nothing.

However, When G-d makes the request, then He also enables us to hear and understand so we can then preform the Heavenly Task with the utmost Good Works being Done, for G-d's Kingdom here on Earth, and to open the eyes of the Spiritual Blind to G-d's Way of Mercy Grace and Love for the lost Sheep of Israel, who are The Elect of G-d and are not yet in The Kingdom of G-d on Earth.

But even this will have an adverse effect on his Spirit not hearing G-d's Voice deep within his heart. This not hearing G-d Speaking to him should send off all kinds of alarm within The Believer.

This usually happens to those who have been living in The Kingdom of G-d for a long time and know what they are talking about but didn't really understand completely the full extent of the question, but rambles off on a diatribe that completely means nothing to the one who has asked the question.

So there are all kinds of interwoven details that G-d has placed within our mind and soul as interlinked connection that are triggered when we are not in Fellowship With G-d.

To me, this is how we have G-d's checks and balances even within our Spiritual Soul. We will long for The Fellowship which G-d brings to our physical body and mind as well as to our Spiritual Soul. When we do not receive back from G-d, in our prayer life, we know immediately that we need to Seek His Forgiveness and reestablish our Fellowship with G-d.

Shalom, Lee...

JeffLogan's picture

Regarding Ecclesiastes 12:7, Part 2

Eccl 12:7 Part 2

We were looking at Ecclesiastes 12:7 and what actually returns to God at death. In part 1 we saw that the word translated spirit here is synonymous with “breath of God” elsewhere in scripture; and that interpreting “spirit” here as “the breath of God” (of life) would harmonize with the words of God to Adam when He told him that man was taken from the dust and to the dust he would return—pointing to the utter destruction of life.

Now we will reason of whom the verse is speaking.

    "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:7).

Now it doesn’t stipulate that only the spirit of righteous men return to God but rather it speaks in rather general terms. The implication is that the spirit of every man, wicked or saint, returns to God at death.

Of course, the traditional view is that the word spirit here actually means soul. But as we discovered in part 1 that is not sound logic. But if it were true then what this verse would then say is that the souls of every man, whether righteous or evil, goes immediately to be with God at death. A more reasonable explanation that this verse would support is that at death the breath of life (the spirit here means breath) returns to God. Thus, the body dies when the breath of life departs. And since all life resides with God and God gave to man this breath of life it only stands to reason that it returns to God—it is His property, so to speak.

So if this verse teaches that all souls go to heaven at death--because it doesn’t distinguish between good and bad souls--then the implication is that everyone goes to heaven at death. It becomes Universalism where everyone is saved. That is really the only conclusion we can draw from this scripture—that it applies to all souls of men, if spirit really means soul.

So it doesn't appear this verse supports the view that the "soul" returns to God at death but it does support a view that the "spirit" (here the word means breath) does indeed return to God who gave it; and that view harmonizes with other verses on the subject.


_______ _______ ______ ______ ______

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."